Category: Transforming Trauma Podcast

While most clinicians are seeking effective clinical skills to bring back to their clients, NARM® therapists are often surprised to experience such profound personal transformation for themselves through training in NARM. In learning more about themselves and their own healing process, the result is a better understanding of their client’s healing process. Self-discovery can be a vehicle toward personal and relational change.

On this episode of Transforming Trauma, host Emily Ruth invites NARM Master Therapists Alex White and Sabrena Ness to share their professional experiences as members of the NARM training community and personal journeys of self-discovery. The trio also discusses the mentorship programs that support ongoing professional development and personal growth hosted by the Complex Trauma Training Center, as well as opportunities for stronger community engagement and support.

“I think that’s something that I’ve always valued about this community is not just the work and the model, but the people who are in it,” says Alex, who has been in the field for fifteen years but didn’t begin exploring the NeuroAffective Relational Model® until 2020, just as the pandemic forced everyone to evaluate long-standing coping strategies and support structures. “I was newly licensed and still felt like I was sort of throwing things at a wall when it came to doing therapy.” While Alex continued to provide clients with critical behavioral skill sets and worksheets, he craved more depth. “I felt most effective…when we were able to sort of be human together,” he recalls, “even if I didn’t really have a concept of the intentionality in that.” 

Later that same year, Alex joined an online NARM Training. “I found concepts and understanding and intentionality to a lot of the things that I’d started to connect to,” he says, “bringing together these different ideas that had resonated for me but weren’t held together in any kind of holistic way.”

Sabrena, the Clinical Director at LifeStance Health in Utah, encountered her frustrations working with behavioral models early in her career. The search for a more meaningful therapeutic approach was the basis for many conversations with Alex, as well as CTTC Faculty Marcia Black. “It wasn’t until I started understanding more about complex trauma that I realized this is exactly what I have been looking for,” she says. “And then I was hooked!” 

Alex and Sabrena credit their extensive NARM training with creating a support framework that encourages exploration into personal behavior patterns. Not only did they both develop greater empathy for their clients, as a result, they also fostered more empathy toward themselves. “There were these things that I did in life that I didn’t quite understand, and it started to make sense,” says Sabrena. “when I started the NARM training, I didn’t even realize how much healing I had not done!”

Once they completed the NARM Master Therapist Training, they both felt like they were still at the beginning of their self-discovery, so they both signed up for the first SPACE Program through CTTC. This inner development program for therapists was the perfect next step. “Looking back, it’s evident the extent to which there was all of this personal healing that I just didn’t have the wording or bandwidth to do,” marvels Alex. “It feels really special the extent to which within these kinds of trainings, and the community more broadly, there’s an acknowledgment and holding of those kinds of things in a way that I don’t think I’ve really experienced in a lot of other years of my life or areas of my life.”

Transformation happens as we engage in an authentic process of self-discovery. Both Alex and Sabrena have found that supporting clients, while also supporting themselves, leads to profound personal and interpersonal healing. Sabrena reflects, “I realized I had so much more healing to do, and I still do…We can be messy, and we’re still growing. That’s part of the process…I always talk about it as, like, a coming home.”

Transforming Trauma thanks Alex and Sabrena for sharing their personal and professional development journeys with our community. We appreciate their invitation to explore NARM® Therapist Trainings and meet this moment of social transformation.

RECOMMENDED EPISODE

Creating SPACE for Self-Discovery and Community Support for Therapists

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

Healing Developmental Trauma: How Early Trauma Affects Self-Regulation, Self-Image, and the Capacity for Relationship

The Practical Guide for Healing Developmental Trauma: Using the NeuroAffective Relational Model to Address Adverse Childhood Experiences and Resolve Complex Trauma

GUEST CONTACT & BIOS

Lifestance Health

Sabrena Ness is a Clinical Mental Health Counselor (CMHC) in Utah and a Licensed Professional Counselor (LPC) in Colorado. She earned her Master of Science in Clinical Mental Health Counseling from the University of Wyoming. Sabrena is the Clinical Director at LifeStance Health in Utah and has been with LifeStance since 2021. She also serves as a Co-Chair for the Pacific Northwest region of LifeStance’s Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and

Belonging (DEIB) chapter, where she focuses on fostering an inclusive and supportive workplace culture. She has a deep passion for supervision, mentoring clinicians in their professional growth, and ensuring high-quality care delivery.

Sabrena specializes in complex developmental trauma and complex PTSD, working with individuals and couples across the lifespan. She is particularly dedicated to supporting LGBTQ+ and neurodivergent populations, creating affirming and effective therapeutic spaces. She is a NARM Therapist and participates as a Training Assistant in NARM Trainings, reinforcing her commitment to advancing trauma-informed care. Her work emphasizes innovative leadership, continuous improvement, and a deep dedication to mental health advocacy.

Alex White Counseling & Consulting

Alex White’s career spans more than 15 years in the mental health field, throughout which he has been continually inspired by the transformative power of the therapeutic process. A NARM Master Therapist, Alex first joined the NARM community in 2020 and has served as a Training Assistant in NARM Trainings since 2022.

Alex has worked with diverse populations across various settings, with a particular focus on the unique complexities of trauma work with adults (18+). He currently runs a private practice in Salt Lake City, Utah, focusing on issues such as religious trauma, LGBTQ+ issues, compassion fatigue, burnout, shame, relationship difficulties, and masculinity. He is also an adjunct faculty in the MS Counseling Program at Westminster University.

To fall under the influence of a narcissist is to wonder: how did I get here? We often think of narcissism as an overt disorder characterized by amplified displays of arrogance, self-importance, and a lack of empathy. But narcissists have a canny ability to repackage those traits and sell them as charm, intelligence, or sensitivity. It’s this “playbook” of calculated behaviors that allows them to avoid detection and continue manipulating close relations or entire groups. One filmmaker has drawn from his own experience, those of other survivors, and even narcissists themselves to expose patterns of abuse and educate all of us.

On this episode of Transforming Trauma, CTTC Director and NARM® Senior Trainer Brad Kammer welcomes Mark Vicente, the award-winning writer, director, podcaster, and producer, to discuss the personal awakening that eventually prompted him to leave the NXIVM cult and create The Narcissist’s Playbook. This feature-length documentary explores “one of the most pervasive and often misunderstood mental pathologies of our culture.” 

On this episode of Transforming Trauma, CTTC Director and NARM® Senior Trainer Brad Kammer welcomes Mark Vicente, the award-winning writer, director, podcaster, and producer, to discuss the personal awakening that eventually prompted him to leave the NXIVM cult and contribute to the documentary series The Vow and create the feature-length documentary The Narcissist’s Playbook (currently in production). This feature-length documentary explores “one of the most pervasive and often misunderstood mental pathologies of our culture.” 

The pair also delve into the role that narcissism plays in the manipulative tactics that lead to cults and other high control groups, as well as reflected in leaders in Hollywood, government, and business. They explore common narcissistic traits and how toxic shame shapes narcissistic behavior. 

As Mark recalls the 12 years of calculated conditioning he experienced as a member of NXIVM, he says, “I don’t think that everything is a cult. I think it’s based on the pathology of the leader. People think that narcissists know they’re lying. I think that they live in a world like a little child who believes their story. They live in a level of delusion that I don’t know that all of them know.“ He shares about the intense pain he felt upon awakening to the leader’s deceitfulness and the impact on his loved ones and himself. “Fast forward to 2017 when I finally understand that this veneer of the organization––which is all about goodness and ethics and morality––what’s happening underneath is evil,” says Mark.

Once the horror of the cult’s true nature sunk in, Mark had to contend with the existential crisis of being manipulated. NXIVM had severed him from his principles, including the strong sense of justice that he had cultivated, having witnessed atrocities in his native Johannesburg, South Africa. In addition to that betrayal, NXIVM’s leader had thoroughly twisted the concepts of gratitude, service, and empathy into chains that bound cult members to him. “They hooked you based on values you yearned for,” Mark admits.

“I was a mess,” Mark confides, adding that instead of dealing with the trauma, he went to war with the cult, channeling his rage into court appearances and contributing to The Vow, a multi-part documentary about NXIVM. But Mark didn’t receive closure from either endeavor.

Then, in 2019,  with input from his wife, Mark got the idea for a documentary about narcissists. “I wanted to tell stories from the victim’s perspective,” he says, “to talk to clinicians and neuroscientists about what’s going on with narcissists. I wanted to talk about the spectrum of narcissism. But, what I really wanted to do is, I wanted to speak to self-confessed narcissists.” 

Working on The Narcissist’s Playbook has challenged Mark to confront the same characteristics he had encountered in NXIVM’s leader. “The only way to relieve yourself is through reframing things to realize it wasn’t really your fault. There was a relief I felt,” he says. But Mark is keenly aware there’s more to his healing journey. “I don’t want to talk about narcissism forever. There’s something inside of me that says, at a certain point, we’ll be done,” he acknowledges. “I believe you can get closer to your true essence if you stop avoiding the uncomfortable things.”

Transforming Trauma thanks Mark for providing our community with a firsthand account of the emotional toll that cult survivors experience after leaving high-control organizations. We are also grateful to him for continuing to explore complex topics like narcissism through a comprehensive and compassionate lens.

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

The Narcissist’s Playbook

What The #$*! Do We (K)now!!?

My Dinner With Andre

The Vow

A Timeline of the Nexivm Sex Cult Case – NYT

Stranger Things

GUEST CONTACT & BIO

About Mark Vicente:

Mark Vicente is an author, speaker, and award-winning writer/director/producer from Johannesburg, South Africa. Growing up amid the atrocities in South Africa, he began questioning fundamental beliefs about human behavior, morality, cosmology, existentialism, and mysticism at an early age. Unifying his love for science, philosophy, and film, Mark’s vision took shape with “What the BLEEP Do We Know!?”. He later released “Encender el Corazón”, a powerful film about Mexico’s kidnapping crisis. While the film touched people deeply, it was by association supporting the criminal enterprise NXIVM. Mark withdrew the film and, alongside fellow whistleblowers, exposed the group, resulting in multiple arrests and prosecutions. His journey is chronicled in HBO’s 15-part documentary series “The Vow”. 

Mark has since focused on exposing the manipulative dynamics of high-control groups. He’s currently finishing “The Narcissist’s Playbook”, a feature documentary on narcissism, told through the unflinching accounts of four self-aware malignant narcissists, alongside insights from survivors, scientists, and mental health experts, filmed across seven countries.

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For many mental health professionals, exploration into a client’s relationship with spirituality is often left out or actively avoided.  Could honest and open discussions about a client’s spiritual perspective help them reconnect to themselves and others while also alleviating their symptoms of stress, anxiety, and depression?

On this episode of Transforming Trauma, host Emily Ruth is honored to welcome Harvard psychologist, author, and educator David Rosmarin, PhD., to explore the connection between spirituality and mental health, modern psychology’s aversion to the topic, and the ancient Jewish wisdom behind the connections paradigm.

“Since the dawn of psychotherapy, we’ve just shied away from these basic discussions, and it’s a real shame,” confides David, who has spent much of his professional life not only emphasizing but also providing clinical research on the connection between spirituality and mental health.  “It’s really not rocket science to address spiritual life as long as you have the right questions to ask and you’re willing to do so.” Orienting people to what’s most important in their life, what gives them the most meaning, and the most sense of connection, is a vital part of the therapeutic journey.

David is one of the leading voices in the psychology of spirituality and its application in mental health spaces. As director of the Spirituality and Mental Health Program at McLean Hospital, he oversees a multifaceted initiative to “meet the spiritual needs of patients by providing spiritually integrated care within multiple clinical programs throughout the hospital.” David is also an associate professor of psychology in the Department of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, where he studies the relevance of spirituality to mental health and innovates methods for clinicians to address this area of life.

“When I started taking Psychology 101 and all the other undergraduate courses. I was really struck by the absence of discussions about spiritual and religious life. It really didn’t jive with my own experience,” recalls David, who has a rich spiritual and religious practice. David acknowledges that most of the field is a long way from embracing spiritual inquiry as a regular component of treatment. “There’s a huge disparity between professionals and academicians in terms of spiritual and religious life and that of patients coming in for services,” he says. “If you look at the data, more than 90% of Americans have at least some belief in higher power or something greater. When I give continuing education seminars and ask for a raise of hands of how many people have had a single hour of training in how to address spiritual and religious life, if 5% of the audience raises their hands, that’s a lot.”

David appreciates therapeutic modalities that bring attention to the basic human desire for a larger sense of connection, a theme that is central to the connections paradigm. “It’s the basic idea is that people have the opportunity in this world for connection with ourselves, with others, and, then, some sort of spiritual connection. When we are connected and have these relationships, we tend to thrive.”

Transforming Trauma appreciates David for expanding our understanding of the relationship between faith and mental health and inviting our community to think more deeply about our approach to spirituality in therapeutic spaces.

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

Thriving With Anxiety: 9 Tools to Make Your Anxiety Work for You

The Connections Paradigm: Ancient Jewish Wisdom for Modern Mental Health

Spirituality & Mental Health Laboratory

Handbook of Spirituality, Religion, And Mental Health

GUEST CONTACT & BIO

Center For Anxiety

Dr. David H. Rosmarin is the director of the Spirituality and Mental Health Program at McLean Hospital and an associate professor of psychology in the Department of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. He earned his PhD in clinical psychology from Bowling Green State University, completed a predoctoral internship, and then pursued a postdoctoral fellowship at Harvard Medical School and McLean Hospital. Dr. Rosmarin studies the relevance of spirituality to mental health, and he innovates methods for clinicians to address this area of life. He has published over a hundred manuscripts, editorials, and chapters and served as co-editor of the Handbook of Spirituality, Religion, and Mental Health. Dr. Rosmarin’s work is regularly featured by the media and has appeared on CNN, NPR, Scientific American, the Boston Globe, the Wall Street Journal, and the New York Times.

Within psychology, there is ongoing debate about the relationship between complex trauma and personality.  Developed by Dr. James Masterson, the Masterson Approach focuses on the development of personality, the “false self”, and introduced innovative treatment for schizoid, narcissistic and borderline personality disorders.  One therapist believes that genuine inquisitiveness and compassion are requisites for creating an environment where clients can explore their inner world, address personality disruption, and eventually “remove the false self.”

On this episode of Transforming Trauma, host Emily Ruth welcomes Dr. William Griffith, Director of The International Masterson Institute in Cape Town, South Africa. The pair discuss foundational aspects of the Masterson Approach, and specifically how trauma affects a client’s persistent dependence on “the false self.”

William also shares insights from his 25-year journey from young psychotherapist to established professional and, finally, head of an esteemed educational program. Having succeeded Dr. Judith Pearson as Director of the International Masterson Institute, William continues to build on her legacy, ensuring the Institute’s creative and empathetic guidance in treating personality disorders. He combines his leadership role at the Institute with an active clinical practice, offering expertise in working with patients who exhibit high-risk behaviors. William has also served on the teaching faculty of multiple South African universities delivering lectures and workshops globally. 

“All three of these character structures (schizoid, narcissistic and borderline personality disorders), presents with a unique split-object relation,” William says, emphasizing the premise of Masterson’s modality. “That self experience presents with different ways in relating or failing in relating with people.” William is sensitive to those relational failures. “We sacrifice a lot of ourselves to become a false self, so to speak,” he confides. “So, the essence, then, of the Masterson approach is to allow the real self to emerge and a person to be hopeful.”

While William admits that the Masterson Approach is a complex theory to distill within the confines of a podcast, he does an excellent job of highlighting its essence. “The aim of the therapy is to remove the defensive part, allow the person to let go of the false self defenses and for the real self to emerge,” he observes, adding, “and for the person to get in contact with that part of themselves that has been lost during his relating since birth.”

As this therapeutic relationship grows, the client is supported to move beyond their false self. “I think the most important thing for the therapist [is] neutrality, for the therapist to sit there and being able to hold the frame, hold the patient,” Willam says. “Masterson gave me a new respect for therapy as a treatment method. And I’ve seen the benefits. I’ve seen people improving, and I’ve seen people reentering life.” He hopes therapists take the time to develop their curiosity and let it guide their practice. “It’s as simple as just sitting there,” he says, “just being there.”

Transforming Trauma thanks William for sharing the Masterson Approach with our community. His dedication to treating personality disorders with compassion and clarity is a gift to clients and clinicians.

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

The Unanswered Self: The Masterson Approach To Healing Of Personality Disorder

GUEST CONTACT & BIO

The International Masterson Institute

William Griffith is a clinical psychologist, with over 25 years of experience in practice and extensive research. Having succeeded Dr. Judith Pearson as Director of the International Masterson Institute, Griffith now continues to build on her legacy, ensuring the Institute’s continued leadership in the treatment of personality disorders. Based in Cape Town, South Africa, Griffith combines his leadership role at the Institute with an active clinical practice, offering expertise in working with patients who exhibit high-risk behaviors. Griffith has also served on the teaching faculty of multiple South African universities, delivering lectures and workshops globally. William Griffith is grateful to be doing this work and is still humbled by humanity on a daily basis.

Healthy relationships, whether romantic, platonic, or professional, thrive when each party is committed to transparent, compassionate interactions. Creating healthier interactions requires a greater awareness of the conditioned, unconscious responses embedded in our interpersonal communication styles. One psychotherapist believes that we can create an environment for better relationships by identifying personality patterns and actively addressing the biases that each pattern elicits. 

On this episode of Transforming Trauma, CTTC Director and NARM® Senior Trainer Brad Kammer welcomes psychologist, author, and trainer Steven Kessler, MFT, to discuss the role that personality patterns play in our communication styles and how those patterns impact our relationships. The pair delve into the origins of these patterns and the unconscious “safety” tactics associated with each. Brad and Steven also examine strategies for developing an ability to listen and respond to one another in a more holistic and conscious manner.

Steven earned his Master’s in transpersonal psychology and has been a licensed psychotherapist for almost 30 years. He has pursued various spiritual and meditation practices, studying many different healing modalities and maps of personality. Since 1984, he has taught hundreds of groups and workshops in the US and internationally helping people heal their wounds and grow into their full adult selves. Steven’s bestselling book, The Five Personality Patterns, deepens the insights of character structure and presents its map of the human personality to the general public. In his latest book, How To Have Better Relationships, Steven outlines techniques for deepening interpersonal relationships based on the five personality patterns.

“I think it’s crucial for any therapist or anybody doing healing work or, frankly, any manager in a company, boss, anyone who wants to communicate with their coworkers, with their spouse or lover, with their family members…it’s important to realize that not everybody is automatically doing the same personality pattern that you do. They could be doing something totally different.” begins Steven. “We don’t experience the same world that whoever we’re interacting with experiences. So, you gotta know what slices they’re experiencing. You’re going to have to communicate with them in their world, in their language, in a way they understand.” 

Communication, observes Steven, becomes less complicated once we understand the motivations and self-preservation tactics behind each of the five personality patterns. That work begins by identifying our enduring pattern. “For most of us, we identify with our main pattern, whichever is strongest in us,” he says. “We identify so deeply that if you ask a person, ‘Why do you behave like that?’ they will say, ‘That’s just who I am.’ It’s become an identity structure. It’s so strong that working with them in therapy when they come to the possibility that they don’t have to behave that way, there can be a bit of an identity crisis.”

Steven and Brad discuss the origin of developmental theory and specifically character structures that originated with Dr. Wilhelm Reich, and was evolved over many decades into a greater understanding of personality patterns that impact us all.  Brad reflects on the developmental theory presented by the NeuroAffective Relational Model®, which is called the Adaptive Survival Styles, and how this is used to support the healing of complex trauma. They then discuss the similarities and differences of the NARM adaptive survival style framework and the personality patterns framework.

Steven discusses a shared perspective that by identifying our patterns, we can better understand others’ patterns or safety strategies. “Whenever a person is caught in any pattern, that pattern is distorting their perceptions. If you know how your habitual patterns are distorting your perceptions, you can lean the other way.” The shift, he says, can significantly improve any type of relationship. This understanding is critical in both the NARM clinical approach as well as how Steven approaches therapy with his clients.

Transforming Trauma is grateful to Steven for his warm and compassionate insights and for providing our community with a roadmap for creating more authentic relationships.

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

The Five Personality Patterns: Your Guide to Understanding Yourself and Others and Developing Emotional Maturity

How To Have Better Relationships: The Skills You Need, The Actions To Take Based On The 5 

Personality Patterns

Myers-Briggs

The Enneagram

Amadeus

Dr. Wilhelm Reich

GUEST CONTACT & BIO

The Five Personality Patterns

Steven Kessler has been studying people and their emotions since high school, where he attended plays to better understand human behavior. After a stint studying physics at MIT, followed by an undergraduate degree in acting from Boston University, and four years at the New England Repertory Theatre, his deep interest in the human psyche led him to earn an MA in Transpersonal Psychology. For over 30 years, he has been a licensed psychotherapist.

Steven has been studying different healing modalities and maps of personality, including Character Structure, the Enneagram, NLP, energy work, Thought Field Therapy, and EFT (Emotional Freedom Techniques). He is a certified EFT Expert & Trainer. For over three decades, Steven has also pursued various spiritual and meditation practices, including 16 years in the Diamond Heart meditation school. For over 15 years, he has been a student of Lynda Caesara, studying Character Structure, the direct perception of energy, and shamanism in the lineage of Grandfather Two Bears and the Southern Seers tradition. Steven has taught hundreds of groups and workshops in the US and internationally, and recently has trained other therapists in the use of EFT. 

His bestselling book, The 5 Personality Patterns, deepens the insights into character structure and introduces its map of the human personality to the general public. In his latest book, How To Have Better Relationships, Steven outlines techniques for deepening interpersonal relationships based on the five personality patterns.