Category: Transforming Trauma Podcast

“The bottom line for all of the victims of trauma that I work with is that they have become profoundly self-alienated and don’t recognize the harmfulness of their own self-negation.” ~Daniel Shaw

Social media platforms are filled with attention-grabbing posts on how to spot, leave, or recover from someone who displays narcissistic characteristics. While those 90-second efforts offer an interesting overview, they rarely provide us with a meaningful foundation for understanding the psychology of a traumatizing narcissist or how their behavior impacts survivors.

One psychotherapist has distilled his vast knowledge and personal experience into an insightful and highly accessible 100-page introduction to the concept of Traumatic Narcissism Theory.

On this episode of Transforming Trauma, host Emily Ruth welcomes back Daniel Shaw, author of Traumatic Narcissism Theory: A Contemporary Psychoanalytic Introduction, to discuss Traumatic Narcissism Theory (TNT), a framework he created and has refined over roughly thirty years. Through personal story and contributions from many historically influential psychologists, Daniel charts the evolution of narcissism theory and clearly explains the utility of TNT. He also offers clinicians a roadmap for supporting survivors of traumatizing narcissism as they regain their confidence and recover their autonomy.

“I hope that I’ll be able to really describe what I believe is most clinically useful about understanding traumatic narcissism,” Daniel begins. He accomplishes all that and more in his third podcast visit, starting with the origin story of his interest in narcissism and the harm it causes.

“I began because I had left what I came to see as a religious cult that I’d been very committed to very deeply for 13 years before beginning my graduate degree in social work,” says Daniel. He explored narcissism amongst cult leaders for his thesis, noting that experts at the time viewed these charismatic individuals as sociopaths who wielded mind control over their followers. “But I had just been in a relationship with a cult leader before social work school, and I wasn’t satisfied with that way of thinking.”

Daniel discovered that the psychological and sexual abuse, cruelty, dehumanization, domination, and subjugation were features in many other groups and organizations, and isn’t limited to only religious cults. Daniel has come to believe that traumatic narcissism emerges from early childhood experiences of being bullied or profoundly humiliated. The compensatory fantasies of omnipotence then metastasized into delusions. Those delusions, in turn, function like a dam, holding back unresolved feelings of shame, dependency, and impotence. If the dam breaks, an individual risks psychotic decompensation.

TNT describes eight main behaviors as typical of traumatic narcissism: love bombing; creating dissociation through coerced disorganized attachment; weaponized suffering; DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender); isolation; provoking jealousy; demanding perfection and purity; and omnipotence. Because the relational violence is more often psychological rather than physical, the behaviors resemble the coercive control studied in domestic violence situations.

Daniel’s personal experience under the influence of traumatic narcissism led him to dedicate his career to helping survivors heal from subjugation trauma, which leaves “the victim in a state of complete dysregulation and post-traumatic stress, hypervigilance, and most profoundly, self-alienation, self-blame, and self-punishment,” he observes.

TNT begins with stabilization and draws on other modalities like parts work and EMDR. But psychoeducation is also important. “I take pains to educate clients about the impact of trauma on their body, brain, and nervous system. This isn’t done in a manualized, protocol-driven way,” Daniel concedes. “I’ve tried to lay out the concepts in a clear, organized way. But my approach as a mostly psychoanalytically trained person before I ever was trained in the other trauma theories is kind of a talk therapy that introduces information when the client seems ready.”

Working with survivors of traumatic narcissism tends to be a slow process. Daniel advises clinicians to take it slow and seek supervision or peer support. It’s not unusual for feelings of frustration and powerlessness to tempt therapists into pushing harder when clients need gentle coaxing. TNT offers an antidote to hopelessness. More than any modality, however, Daniel is struck by the human capacity to heal. “I try to keep my faith in human potential right in front of me as much as I possibly can, especially when it’s hard to do so.”

Transforming Trauma is grateful to Daniel for his enduring willingness to trust our community with his personal story and share his incredible professional insights with us.

RECOMMENDED EPISODE

Traumatic Narcissism: Relational Systems of Subjugation with Daniel Shaw

Continuing the Conversation of Traumatic Narcissism and Recovery with Daniel Shaw

Healing from Traumatic Love with Dr. Nadine Macaluso

What If Narcissism Is a Trauma Adaptation? with Dr. Mark Ettensohn

From the Cult of NXIVM to “The Narcissist’s Playbook” with Filmmaker Mark Vicente

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

The Drama of the Gifted Child

Escape From Freedom

The Heart Of Man

Otto F. Kernberg, M.D.

Heinz Kohut, M.D.

Traumatic Narcissism Theory: A Contemporary Introduction

Janina Fisher, Ph.D.

Carrie

Jennifer J. Freyd, Ph.D.

Gaslight

Melody Beattie

The Vow

Gisèle Pelicot

“If people don’t understand your needs, they can’t rise to the occasion to fulfill them.” ~Nicole Russell-Wharton

Sometimes silence creates space for reflection. But what happens when silence holds unspoken pain, and difficult conversations are increasingly avoided or abandoned altogether? Spoiler alert: suppressing what should be said rarely leads to positive outcomes for our physical or mental wellbeing. So, how do we wade into the turbulent emotional waters of relational silence, confidently embody our role as generational cycle-breakers, and future-proof our lineage?

On this episode of Transforming Trauma, host Emily Ruth chats with Nicole Russell-Wharton, founder of the Precious Dreams Foundation and author of “Breaking Generational Silence,” about the liberatory work of disrupting harmful relational patterns. Nicole’s lived experience lends an intensely personal aspect to her professional work. It also provides a blueprint for how we can better advocate for ourselves, our communities, and the children in our care.

Together, they discuss how:

• Harmful cycles can repeat even when love is present.
• Silence can hide the “invisible issues” within a family.
• Cycle-breaking requires becoming a “transitional character.”
• How we communicate can determine whether someone becomes curious or defensive.
• Generational healing is bigger than the individual.

“I would love for [the audience] to understand that harmful cycles typically repeat, and it’s not out of a lack of love. Oftentimes, it’s out of a lack of communication skills,” says Nicole. Her opening intention highlights a universal challenge: even families that want to “do better” struggle because they lack the interpersonal safety and language needed to address and repair harm. The fallback position of self-blame or excusing family members for their poor behavior becomes a generational inheritance.

Nicole’s healing journey began in 2012 with the founding of Precious Dreams Foundation (PDF) in New York City. PDF started out providing tangible comfort items, such as new pajamas and stuffed animals, to youth impacted by the foster system or experiencing homelessness. “But with every experience, every encounter, every shelter visit, it became very clear to me that there was so much more at stake. We needed to support their mental health,” says Nicole.

In 2013, PDF expanded its reach, offering developmental programming and wraparound services. “It’s my full-time work, my biggest passion project to date,” Nicole explains, adding that PDF has served over 30,000 young people since its inception.

While the foundation’s origin story accentuates her professional drive, it’s Nicole’s account of a personal medical crisis––a collapsed lung and subsequent diagnosis of thoracic endometriosis––that became the catalyst for deep self-inquiry. “Writing “Breaking Generational Silence” was what I needed at a point in my life where I experienced a near-death experience,” she confides. “In doing the work to understand myself and how I arrived at this moment, I started asking my family more questions about our health history. I discovered two things. One was that a lot of people didn’t have the answers because they never asked questions.”

“The other thing that I discovered is it’s very likely my grandmother had endometriosis, and it’s just not something that my mother understood or felt the need to explain to me,” concedes Nicole. The experience reframed “family silence” for her, shifting it from the type of secrets that erupt in a cinematic “reveal” to something more mundane but equally destructive. “When you think about silence, it actually has nothing to do with trauma,” she observes. “A lot of times it’s just suppressed thoughts or repressed emotions.”

Nicole offers some practical guidance for disrupting unhealthy generational patterns:

• Silence isn’t neutral. Distinguish between overt abuse/neglect and the subtler “invisible issues” that don’t get named because no one in the family thought to ask.
• Language matters. Swapping an accusatory phrase like, “you don’t listen to me” for “I feel unheard” invites both parties to consider the other in a compassionate light.
• Embrace the role of “transitional character”. Nicole applies this term to the family member who chooses to interrupt a harmful cycle. The title is meant to empower those engaged in the difficult, often lonely work of doing things differently than the generations before.

As our conversation draws to a close, Emily Ruth invites Nicole to share her wisdom with anyone ready to break a painful generational cycle. “It’s bigger than you. I think that was my motivation when I was doing this work, and even writing this book. This didn’t initially set out to be a book; this started as me needing to document what I could pass down,” acknowledges Nicole. “Even if we’re scared, even if we’re uncomfortable, It’s necessary to be brave in this work.”

Transforming Trauma is grateful to Nicole for giving voice to generational silence. Her work provides a vocabulary for healing and living out loud at a time when so many are told to keep quiet.

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

Breaking Generational Silence

What Happened To You?

My Busy, Busy Brain

Comparison is often cited as the thief of joy. For neurodivergent people, comparison is also a source of shame. Imagine receiving constant reminders that your brain doesn’t respond well to, or “fit” with, the dominant societal structure. The messaging can impact self-worth and inform masking behaviors that neurotypical family members, friends, and co-workers fail to understand.

One clinician invites care providers to move away from asking “what’s wrong with this client?” in favor of a more holistic line of questioning: “how does their client feel, what adaptations have they made to weather neurotypical norms, and what kind of support do they need now?”
On this episode of Transforming Trauma, host Emily Ruth is pleased to welcome Sabrena Ness, CMHC, LPC, clinical director at LifeStance Health and NARM® practitioner. Drawing on her personal and professional experiences, Sabrena shares insights from a neurodivergent perspective, namely, how the NeuroAffective Relational Model® cultivates a tempo ideal for exploring shame and other relational experiences that many neurodivergent people navigate alone.
Sabrena and Emily also explore the developmental trajectory of those on the spectrum, including the adoption of masking techniques––a camouflaging adaptation used to suppress one’s authentic nature––and dispel the unfair characterization that neurodivergent people cannot form genuine connections.

“I know that there were a lot of parts of me that took a lot longer to learn things,” says Sabrena, reflecting on her later-in-life ADHD diagnosis. Even with early academic support, she still carried significant shame into adulthood around learning challenges. “I work with a lot of kids that do not get that same support and even adults who never got that support,” she observes.

“I internalized pretty early that my brain worked differently, even though I didn’t have the language for that,” says Sabrena, who discovered that ADHD runs in her family. The realization helped her to eventually nurture her abilities rather than “correct” perceived learning deficiencies. It also led Sabrena to clinical research that identified developmental and relational patterns (not just diagnoses) that might be passed down both genetically and environmentally.

Sabrena’s personal history and fervent curiosity helped shape her professional therapeutic approach. Early in her career in community mental health, she noticed that standard behavioral methods often backfired with neurodivergent kids—activating them rather than helping, sometimes worsening behaviors. Sabrena grew frustrated with standard cognitive problem-solving models. “CBT, for example, is such a great model for many things. But just thinking about how our thoughts, beliefs, and behaviors are connected and expecting that if I can influence one of those things, all of them will be influenced can be really overwhelming for someone with ADHD or autism,” she explains.

NARM helps Sabrena’s neurodivergent clients shift their energy from changing behaviors to understanding what lies beneath the surface. “The core of it felt different,” she recalls. She highlights several key features that make NARM well-suited when working with this population:

• Curiosity over correction. Rather than teaching clients to communicate differently, NARM asks why they communicate as they do – what’s the function or even wisdom of the communication – thereby reducing shame instead of reinforcing it.
• Relaxed pacing. “NARM is really about exploration for the purpose of exploration,” Sabrena says. The modality encourages clients to slow down and stay with key moments instead of rushing toward resolution.
• Top-Down / Bottom-Up approach. “We’re not just working cognitively with our thoughts and behaviors,” says Sabrena. “We’re also paying attention to our body, our nervous system, the relational patterns that we are experiencing and also how I’m experiencing things right now in this moment.”

Sabrena returns to the topic of shame throughout our conversation, identifying its impact on familial neurodivergent pairings such as romantic partnerships or parent/caregiver and child relationships. Regardless of combination, Sabrena emphasizes that shame isn’t about neurodivergence itself. “It’s not about you needing all these things so that you can be more normal or more neurotypical. It’s so much more about what would support you and the life that you want to live.”

Transforming Trauma appreciates Sabrena’s continued support of neurodivergent clients and the communities that they belong to.

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

NARM® – The NeuroAffected Relational Model®

“ We’re getting better at repairing internally and with our children, and letting go of any expectation of what we thought parenting should look like” ~Amanda Losch

They say it takes a village to raise a child. But what do you do when the prevailing support system can’t accommodate the needs of a neurodivergent family? You create your own supportive network.

One therapist wasn’t content with simply curating reviews of sensory-friendly playgroups and neighborhood events. Instead, she sought out somatic knowledge and a heart-centered way of being. What she found was a trauma-informed modality and a community of like-minded practitioners. That discovery liberated her from shame and guided her to a more compassionate way of parenting her neurodivergent children.

On this episode of Transforming Trauma, host Emily Ruth chats with Amanda Losch, LSCW, a NARM® Master Therapist based outside Chicago who specializes in developmental trauma. Their deeply personal conversation moves beyond clinical theory into the relational, emotional, and somatic realities of parenting while neurodivergent, married to a neurodivergent partner, and raising neurodivergent kids. Amanda credits her early-career training in the NeuroAffective Relational Model®, and ongoing connection to the CTTC-NARM training community, for informing her recovery from trauma, shame, and parental perfectionism while facilitating her growth as a therapist and mother.

“This is what I feel like society wants from moms in 2026: heal your own trauma, stay up to date on parenting techniques, have solid relationships, stay regulated all of the time while you’re regulating everybody else, dismantle the patriarchy…” Amanda’s list of internalized demands is long and, unfortunately, familiar to most. “The pressuring of having that figured out on top of all the pressures of being a parent in general has, in my experience and a lot of my clients, led to a lot of shame.”

A turning point arrived in the form of burnout so complete that Amanda’s usual coping mechanisms stopped working. In the midst of this exhaustion, she plugged into the capacity to stop shaming herself for the inevitable mistakes of parenthood and the indelible scars of complex trauma. Practice and patience became her twin allies. “Just working on not shaming yourself or moving towards being more human with yourself, theoretically, is the most radical healing piece of it all,” she asserts.

NARM played an important role in that revolutionary process. The modality supported Amanda through an exploration of the complex trauma that had shaped her neurodivergent childhood. Expressing deep appreciation for the professional community within CTTC and throughout NARM Trainings, Amanda shares that both of her children were “raised” inside this incredibly supportive community. “What a powerful way to see an example of parents doing it differently, showing these examples of how being a human could look, how being a mom could look, how being a dad could look.”

But healing from childhood trauma often bumps up against other personal and institutional challenges. For years, Amanda filtered her differences through a trauma lens exclusively, which limited her growth. “Once I got some of the diagnoses that I did, it allowed me to move from trying to “fix” into accommodating,” she says, clarifying the difference between acceptance and giving up. “This is the reality of how my brain and body work, and I don’t have to effort against that; I can just do things that support how I exist in the world.”

Amanda’s family navigates multiple forms of dynamic disability. “I’m glad that we have a family that’s trying to create space for that complexity and has the ability to name and repair some of the systemic failures,” she observes. Modeling accountability for her children means identifying the moments when she gets it wrong and treating them as part of a shared, continual process of learning to be human.

As their discussion winds down, Emily invites Amanda to share her perspective on what she wishes more trauma-informed spaces understood about neurodivergent parenting. “It’s a constant sort of parsing,” Amanda confides. She offers several foundational inquiries therapists can use to ground the therapeutic relationship. “Are there parts of your client’s story that could be explained by neurodivergence? And, what do we gain from moving towards an accommodation model versus efforting against?”

Transforming Trauma is grateful to Amanda for her candor regarding the realities of neurodivergent parenting. We appreciate her work building a network of accessible, neuro-affirming spaces where every individual can thrive.

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

NARM® – The NeuroAffected Relational Model®

Bianka Hardin – Centered Therapy Chicago

“ Being realistic about what I can and can’t give the client, I think, is really helpful to good therapy, because I don’t think people just want to be told that everything’s going well. Why do therapy if everything’s going well?” ~Sean Inderbitzen

Working with autistic clients can feel incomplete at times. Newer clinicians or those who aren’t neurodivergent may struggle with the dynamics of this unique client/therapist alliance, even as they collaborate on issues related to relationships and empathy. But one autistic psychotherapist and Mayo Clinic researcher urges trauma-informed therapists to stick with this population. He notes that the tools they already use with neurotypical people can also support neurodivergent clients, building capacity for deeper explorations of identity, behavior, and connection in a non-pathologizing environment.

On this episode of Transforming Trauma, host Emily Ruth is pleased to welcome Dr. Sean Inderbitzen, DSW, LCSW, a psychotherapist, researcher, and author who has dedicated his practice to advancing autism therapy through innovative, evidence-based approaches. Sean shares insights from his work with individuals on the autism spectrum and previews his new book, Neural Exercises for Autism. He also expands on his assertion that autistic clients can access empathy via somatic integrations like Polyvagal Theory and trauma-informed modalities rather than relying solely on cognitive exercises.

The conversation also explores ways clinicians can help neurodivergent clients avoid the “diagnosis-as-identity” trap, focusing instead on what is within their control. And finally, Sean guides our audience through a simple yet effective practice for reclaiming a sense of safety and well-being during periods of dysregulation.

Sean asserts that much of autism psychotherapy still operates within frameworks rooted in applied behavior analysis (ABA) and early psychodynamic models from the 1970s, without awareness of richer, more evidence-based tools from innovators such as Dan Siegel, Richard Schwartz, Pat Ogden, and Peter Levine. “There are sort of two schools of thought, and the autism science hasn’t really caught up with the work of identity science,” he explains.

To that end, Sean notes that while a diagnosis of neurodivergence can provide peace of mind, it can also become “an excuse to not work at being a better person.” Instead, he views diagnosis as a starting point––helpful in medication decisions and guiding certain intervention––but not the destination. ”What people come looking for in a diagnosis is not the answer to the question of what sort of series of labels will be helpful to my interventions,” he says. “It’s a question of who am I and how do I stop suffering so much?”

When diagnosis becomes identity, it can lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy of limitation. Sean bristles at the suggestion that affixing a label to the challenges or injustices of living with autism actually moves the community forward or reduces its suffering. “The things we can control are largely within ourselves, not other people. And, that notion that other people should have to revolve around me,” he reasons, “is the height and epitome of narcissism.”

Sean offers a simple yet effective grounding practice that he uses with clients to help them focus on areas where they can make real, functional change. “We can be in the middle of chaos, but if we can bring ourselves back to beauty to create presence, that can be so resourcing to us,” he explains. “And that’s a lot of what this kind of work is about, coming back to this place. Like, how do we allow our bodies to be resources to us instead of enemies in this time when it is so untenable in so many ways?”

Transforming Trauma is grateful to Sean for his important work in bringing greater understanding and support to those working with and from the neurodivergent community.

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

Stephen Porges, Ph.D.

“Ballroom Blitzkrieg”

“Happy Now” 

Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA)

Bruce Wampold

Unmasking Autism

Richard Schwartz, Ph.D.

Internal Family Systems (IFS)

The Enneagram

Pat Ogden, Ph.D.

Jaak Panksepp, Ph.D.

Deb Dana, LCSW

Temple Grandin, Ph.D.

Viktor E. Frankl, Ph.D.

Man’s Search For Meaning

Therapist Uncensored

RECOMMENDED EPISODES

The Polyvagal Theory and Developmental Trauma with Dr. Stephen Porges

No Bad Parts and the Self in Healing with Dr. Richard Schwartz, Internal Family Systems

Internal Family Systems (IFS) and NARM with Richard Schwartz and Laurence Heller