Category: Transforming Trauma Podcast

Comparison is often cited as the thief of joy. For neurodivergent people, comparison is also a source of shame. Imagine receiving constant reminders that your brain doesn’t respond well to, or “fit” with, the dominant societal structure. The messaging can impact self-worth and inform masking behaviors that neurotypical family members, friends, and co-workers fail to understand.

One clinician invites care providers to move away from asking “what’s wrong with this client?” in favor of a more holistic line of questioning: “how does their client feel, what adaptations have they made to weather neurotypical norms, and what kind of support do they need now?”
On this episode of Transforming Trauma, host Emily Ruth is pleased to welcome Sabrena Ness, CMHC, LPC, clinical director at LifeStance Health and NARM® practitioner. Drawing on her personal and professional experiences, Sabrena shares insights from a neurodivergent perspective, namely, how the NeuroAffective Relational Model® cultivates a tempo ideal for exploring shame and other relational experiences that many neurodivergent people navigate alone.
Sabrena and Emily also explore the developmental trajectory of those on the spectrum, including the adoption of masking techniques––a camouflaging adaptation used to suppress one’s authentic nature––and dispel the unfair characterization that neurodivergent people cannot form genuine connections.

“I know that there were a lot of parts of me that took a lot longer to learn things,” says Sabrena, reflecting on her later-in-life ADHD diagnosis. Even with early academic support, she still carried significant shame into adulthood around learning challenges. “I work with a lot of kids that do not get that same support and even adults who never got that support,” she observes.

“I internalized pretty early that my brain worked differently, even though I didn’t have the language for that,” says Sabrena, who discovered that ADHD runs in her family. The realization helped her to eventually nurture her abilities rather than “correct” perceived learning deficiencies. It also led Sabrena to clinical research that identified developmental and relational patterns (not just diagnoses) that might be passed down both genetically and environmentally.

Sabrena’s personal history and fervent curiosity helped shape her professional therapeutic approach. Early in her career in community mental health, she noticed that standard behavioral methods often backfired with neurodivergent kids—activating them rather than helping, sometimes worsening behaviors. Sabrena grew frustrated with standard cognitive problem-solving models. “CBT, for example, is such a great model for many things. But just thinking about how our thoughts, beliefs, and behaviors are connected and expecting that if I can influence one of those things, all of them will be influenced can be really overwhelming for someone with ADHD or autism,” she explains.

NARM helps Sabrena’s neurodivergent clients shift their energy from changing behaviors to understanding what lies beneath the surface. “The core of it felt different,” she recalls. She highlights several key features that make NARM well-suited when working with this population:

• Curiosity over correction. Rather than teaching clients to communicate differently, NARM asks why they communicate as they do – what’s the function or even wisdom of the communication – thereby reducing shame instead of reinforcing it.
• Relaxed pacing. “NARM is really about exploration for the purpose of exploration,” Sabrena says. The modality encourages clients to slow down and stay with key moments instead of rushing toward resolution.
• Top-Down / Bottom-Up approach. “We’re not just working cognitively with our thoughts and behaviors,” says Sabrena. “We’re also paying attention to our body, our nervous system, the relational patterns that we are experiencing and also how I’m experiencing things right now in this moment.”

Sabrena returns to the topic of shame throughout our conversation, identifying its impact on familial neurodivergent pairings such as romantic partnerships or parent/caregiver and child relationships. Regardless of combination, Sabrena emphasizes that shame isn’t about neurodivergence itself. “It’s not about you needing all these things so that you can be more normal or more neurotypical. It’s so much more about what would support you and the life that you want to live.”

Transforming Trauma appreciates Sabrena’s continued support of neurodivergent clients and the communities that they belong to.

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

NARM® – The NeuroAffected Relational Model®

“ We’re getting better at repairing internally and with our children, and letting go of any expectation of what we thought parenting should look like” ~Amanda Losch

They say it takes a village to raise a child. But what do you do when the prevailing support system can’t accommodate the needs of a neurodivergent family? You create your own supportive network.

One therapist wasn’t content with simply curating reviews of sensory-friendly playgroups and neighborhood events. Instead, she sought out somatic knowledge and a heart-centered way of being. What she found was a trauma-informed modality and a community of like-minded practitioners. That discovery liberated her from shame and guided her to a more compassionate way of parenting her neurodivergent children.

On this episode of Transforming Trauma, host Emily Ruth chats with Amanda Losch, LSCW, a NARM® Master Therapist based outside Chicago who specializes in developmental trauma. Their deeply personal conversation moves beyond clinical theory into the relational, emotional, and somatic realities of parenting while neurodivergent, married to a neurodivergent partner, and raising neurodivergent kids. Amanda credits her early-career training in the NeuroAffective Relational Model®, and ongoing connection to the CTTC-NARM training community, for informing her recovery from trauma, shame, and parental perfectionism while facilitating her growth as a therapist and mother.

“This is what I feel like society wants from moms in 2026: heal your own trauma, stay up to date on parenting techniques, have solid relationships, stay regulated all of the time while you’re regulating everybody else, dismantle the patriarchy…” Amanda’s list of internalized demands is long and, unfortunately, familiar to most. “The pressuring of having that figured out on top of all the pressures of being a parent in general has, in my experience and a lot of my clients, led to a lot of shame.”

A turning point arrived in the form of burnout so complete that Amanda’s usual coping mechanisms stopped working. In the midst of this exhaustion, she plugged into the capacity to stop shaming herself for the inevitable mistakes of parenthood and the indelible scars of complex trauma. Practice and patience became her twin allies. “Just working on not shaming yourself or moving towards being more human with yourself, theoretically, is the most radical healing piece of it all,” she asserts.

NARM played an important role in that revolutionary process. The modality supported Amanda through an exploration of the complex trauma that had shaped her neurodivergent childhood. Expressing deep appreciation for the professional community within CTTC and throughout NARM Trainings, Amanda shares that both of her children were “raised” inside this incredibly supportive community. “What a powerful way to see an example of parents doing it differently, showing these examples of how being a human could look, how being a mom could look, how being a dad could look.”

But healing from childhood trauma often bumps up against other personal and institutional challenges. For years, Amanda filtered her differences through a trauma lens exclusively, which limited her growth. “Once I got some of the diagnoses that I did, it allowed me to move from trying to “fix” into accommodating,” she says, clarifying the difference between acceptance and giving up. “This is the reality of how my brain and body work, and I don’t have to effort against that; I can just do things that support how I exist in the world.”

Amanda’s family navigates multiple forms of dynamic disability. “I’m glad that we have a family that’s trying to create space for that complexity and has the ability to name and repair some of the systemic failures,” she observes. Modeling accountability for her children means identifying the moments when she gets it wrong and treating them as part of a shared, continual process of learning to be human.

As their discussion winds down, Emily invites Amanda to share her perspective on what she wishes more trauma-informed spaces understood about neurodivergent parenting. “It’s a constant sort of parsing,” Amanda confides. She offers several foundational inquiries therapists can use to ground the therapeutic relationship. “Are there parts of your client’s story that could be explained by neurodivergence? And, what do we gain from moving towards an accommodation model versus efforting against?”

Transforming Trauma is grateful to Amanda for her candor regarding the realities of neurodivergent parenting. We appreciate her work building a network of accessible, neuro-affirming spaces where every individual can thrive.

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

NARM® – The NeuroAffected Relational Model®

Bianka Hardin – Centered Therapy Chicago

“ Being realistic about what I can and can’t give the client, I think, is really helpful to good therapy, because I don’t think people just want to be told that everything’s going well. Why do therapy if everything’s going well?” ~Sean Inderbitzen

Working with autistic clients can feel incomplete at times. Newer clinicians or those who aren’t neurodivergent may struggle with the dynamics of this unique client/therapist alliance, even as they collaborate on issues related to relationships and empathy. But one autistic psychotherapist and Mayo Clinic researcher urges trauma-informed therapists to stick with this population. He notes that the tools they already use with neurotypical people can also support neurodivergent clients, building capacity for deeper explorations of identity, behavior, and connection in a non-pathologizing environment.

On this episode of Transforming Trauma, host Emily Ruth is pleased to welcome Dr. Sean Inderbitzen, DSW, LCSW, a psychotherapist, researcher, and author who has dedicated his practice to advancing autism therapy through innovative, evidence-based approaches. Sean shares insights from his work with individuals on the autism spectrum and previews his new book, Neural Exercises for Autism. He also expands on his assertion that autistic clients can access empathy via somatic integrations like Polyvagal Theory and trauma-informed modalities rather than relying solely on cognitive exercises.

The conversation also explores ways clinicians can help neurodivergent clients avoid the “diagnosis-as-identity” trap, focusing instead on what is within their control. And finally, Sean guides our audience through a simple yet effective practice for reclaiming a sense of safety and well-being during periods of dysregulation.

Sean asserts that much of autism psychotherapy still operates within frameworks rooted in applied behavior analysis (ABA) and early psychodynamic models from the 1970s, without awareness of richer, more evidence-based tools from innovators such as Dan Siegel, Richard Schwartz, Pat Ogden, and Peter Levine. “There are sort of two schools of thought, and the autism science hasn’t really caught up with the work of identity science,” he explains.

To that end, Sean notes that while a diagnosis of neurodivergence can provide peace of mind, it can also become “an excuse to not work at being a better person.” Instead, he views diagnosis as a starting point––helpful in medication decisions and guiding certain intervention––but not the destination. ”What people come looking for in a diagnosis is not the answer to the question of what sort of series of labels will be helpful to my interventions,” he says. “It’s a question of who am I and how do I stop suffering so much?”

When diagnosis becomes identity, it can lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy of limitation. Sean bristles at the suggestion that affixing a label to the challenges or injustices of living with autism actually moves the community forward or reduces its suffering. “The things we can control are largely within ourselves, not other people. And, that notion that other people should have to revolve around me,” he reasons, “is the height and epitome of narcissism.”

Sean offers a simple yet effective grounding practice that he uses with clients to help them focus on areas where they can make real, functional change. “We can be in the middle of chaos, but if we can bring ourselves back to beauty to create presence, that can be so resourcing to us,” he explains. “And that’s a lot of what this kind of work is about, coming back to this place. Like, how do we allow our bodies to be resources to us instead of enemies in this time when it is so untenable in so many ways?”

Transforming Trauma is grateful to Sean for his important work in bringing greater understanding and support to those working with and from the neurodivergent community.

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

Stephen Porges, Ph.D.

“Ballroom Blitzkrieg”

“Happy Now” 

Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA)

Bruce Wampold

Unmasking Autism

Richard Schwartz, Ph.D.

Internal Family Systems (IFS)

The Enneagram

Pat Ogden, Ph.D.

Jaak Panksepp, Ph.D.

Deb Dana, LCSW

Temple Grandin, Ph.D.

Viktor E. Frankl, Ph.D.

Man’s Search For Meaning

Therapist Uncensored

RECOMMENDED EPISODES

The Polyvagal Theory and Developmental Trauma with Dr. Stephen Porges

No Bad Parts and the Self in Healing with Dr. Richard Schwartz, Internal Family Systems

Internal Family Systems (IFS) and NARM with Richard Schwartz and Laurence Heller

“I don’t know that there’s anything especially complex about working with NPD. You just have to know what it is that’s showing up and have a sense of how it’s grounded in the individual’s vulnerability.” ~Dr. Mark Ettensohn

Narcissism has become a buzz word on social media. It has moved from a psychological understanding to a term that is used for blaming, scapegoating, and other emotionally charged narratives. This polarization has led to casting someone with narcissist traits as a villain who is intentionally cruel, manipulative, and beyond help.

While those with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) can exhibit difficult or even harmful traits, social media has erased the distinction between mental illness and moral defect. One clinician cautions that this “narcisso-sphere” content contributes to the despair of an already vulnerable population and even suicidality among those who identify with the diagnosis.

On this episode of Transforming Trauma, host Emilly Ruth welcomes Mark Ettensohn, Psy, D. He offers a corrective to the often sensationalized way NPD is discussed on social media. Mark is the founder of Heal NPD, a clinical and educational platform focused on the understanding and treatment of narcissistic personality disorder. His work explores the developmental and relational roots of narcissism, including trauma, dissociation, and identity. Mark is also the author of Unmasking Narcissism: A Guide to Understanding the Narcissist in Your Life and shares widely followed educational content through his Heal NPD YouTube Channel.

Emily and Mark explore the root causes and manifestations of NPD through a compassionate lens, highlighting a need for greater curiosity and more robust assessment tools among clinicians. In doing so, they dispel the myth that NPD is a purely genetic or untreatable diagnosis.

“Most of my public-facing work is about humanizing narcissistic pathology, trying to help people understand the complexities involved, particularly concerning pathological narcissism as an adaptation to complex early relational trauma,” Mark begins.

NPD shows up in far more varied ways than the “evil narcissist” stereotype suggests. “It’s polymorphic,” explains Mark, meaning it can take many forms. While some presentations align with the grandiose, domineering image popularized online, many are more vulnerable, marked by shame, withdrawal, and hypersensitivity rather than overt arrogance. The distinction matters as it shifts focus from judging behaviors to understanding their underlying psychological processes.

This gentle reframe also underscores the commonality of narcissistic traits. “I think this is something that all clinicians see on a regular basis, whether or not they’re in a position to recognize that that’s what it is,” Mark says. Still, he acknowledges the wide gap between clinical reality and viral storytelling. “Some of the biggest channels in psychology are centered around this narrative of the narcissist as this monstrous figure.”

In the “narcisso-sphere,” NPD is reduced to generalized behaviors: if someone is controlling, cold, or hurtful, they’re a narcissist. Mark maintains that this “outside-in” approach is insufficient. “That’s not psychology. It doesn’t concern the subjective experience of the individual exhibiting those behaviors.” Without understanding a person’s motivations or internal conflicts, he fears that sound clinical diagnosis devolves into guesswork.

Mark traces the roots of NPD to the first few years of life. “Things like chronic attachment disruptions, chronic early adverse childhood experiences––basically, complex relational trauma that’s unfolding during those key windows of identity development––interfere with the mind’s normal developmental trajectory,” he says. The child develops adaptive strategies for maintaining self-esteem and managing overwhelming emotions. NPD, then, isn’t a fixed moral identity or a problem of too much ego. Instead, “it is a treatable issue,” he says.

While temperament of the client and clinician plays a role, Mark advocates for sticking with the journey, exploring traumas and relational experiences together and building a foundation for meaningful repair. “Whatever it is that’s showing up, however off-putting it may be, to be able to see it in light of these early adaptations, that fills in the compassionate piece where you can empathize with the individual. That’s the medicine,” he says. “A lot of the work is just tolerating the ups and downs and all-arounds while trying to stay empathically attuned.”

Transforming Trauma thanks Mark for sharing his expertise with our community. His empathetic approach to NPD invites curiosity over confrontation and genuine relational support over social media simplification.

RECOMMENDED EPISODES

Healing Shame and Guilt using NARM® with Dr. Laurence Heller

Personality and the Alchemy of Therapeutic Change with Nancy McWilliams, PhD

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

Unmasking Narcissism: A Guide to Understanding the Narcissist in Your Life

Building hope for treatment of narcissistic personality disorder – by Igor Weinberg

Psychoanalytic Diagnosis: Understanding Personality Structure in the Clinical Process

Otto Kernberg, M.D.

The Bonds of Love: Psychoanalysis, Feminism, and the Problem of Domination

Pathological narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder – Aaron Pincus, et al

Donald Winnekot

“Our complexity is okay. Our complexity is natural….I’ve learned to make room for my complexity.”~Tracy Rae Clark

We share stories to inform, inspire, and connect. They also serve as maps, helping people commemorate life experiences that have shaped their journeys. One NARM® practitioner inspires others by putting her stories into poems and lyrics, helping guide others in their own path to healing.

On this episode of Transforming Trauma, host Emily Ruth welcomes singer-songwriter and long-time NARM practitioner Tracy Rae Clark, LCSW, CPC, for a deeply introspective conversation. The pair explores how trauma, creativity, music, spirituality, and relational healing converged in Tracy’s search for genuine connection and well-being.

Tracy begins the discussion with one of her favorite quotes. “The spontaneous movement in all of us is toward health, vitality, aliveness.” Those words, by Dr. Laurence Heller, founder of the NeuroAffective Relational Model® (NARM®), can remind us of our inner wisdom and basic humanity. They set the tone for Tracy’s intention. “I want to encourage other people to see the beauty of their own journey and how all these elements play a role in where we are now and the movement toward aliveness,” she says.

When reflecting on her own life, Tracy says she has witnessed the life force at work even through significant hardship, helping her make sense of both her struggles and her growth. “My family went through some really intense developmental relational trauma when I was about five that impacted us for years, even up until this day,” she observes. “I had this mix of intense trauma and deep love. And I think those two things coming together gave me the shattering of trauma, but also the holding and the love to want something more for myself and have the capacity to seek it.”

Therapy became part of Tracy’s life at age five. Creativity also played a central role. “Poetry was my therapy,” she explains. “I learned to connect with myself, make room for some of my complexity, say stuff to paper that I couldn’t say to a person at the time.” Music and songwriting would also become extensions of this inner work, as would her career ambitions. “When I was in eighth grade, I wanted to be a child psychologist,” she recalls. “The seeds were there really early.”

A pivotal moment came during a college internship in Egypt, where Tracy had a profound spiritual experience. “My life became oriented to more being,” she recalls, “rather than succeeding and achieving.”

Tracy emphasizes that after years on a path of spirituality and healing, her introduction to the NeuroAffective Relational Model felt like coming home. “It’s such a transformative model personally as well as professionally,” she affirms. “I really appreciated and noticed right away the community and people doing depth work. I loved that we were healing in community, watching each other in our vulnerable and brave places.”

Tracy highlights the collaborative culture in the NARM Therapist Trainings, which creates a safe container for honoring human complexity while working in the present moment. “I was learning, oh, I can be in process and not know where I’m going, trust someone to be with me, and trust myself to be vulnerable,” she says. “That, to me, felt beautiful and supportive and to not be alone in what we were discovering about ourselves.”

It’s impossible to separate Tracy from the communities that have guided her healing trajectory. She is deeply grateful for the circle of support that includes family members, creative artists, fellow members of Alcoholics Anonymous, and colleagues at the Complex Trauma Training Center (CTTC). “Ever since I did my first NARM training, I’ve been really involved as a training assistant, helping lead small groups, and I’ve been a perpetual student,” she says. “I trust the love that’s there.”

Transforming Trauma thanks Tracy for sharing her journey. Her honesty and commitment to healing represent what’s possible when we stop trying to “fix” ourselves and instead spontaneously move toward connection and health.