Category: Transforming Trauma Podcast

“You don’t have to build up the muscle of compassion, because if you just get the constraints to your natural compassion to relax, then you have plenty of compassion.” – Dr. Dick Schwartz

In this powerful episode of Transforming Trauma, we have another opportunity to listen to a conversation between authors and therapeutic pioneers Drs. Dick Schwartz, founder of Internal Family Systems (IFS), and Laurence Heller, founder of the NeuroAffective Relational Model (NARM). Joined by our host, Sarah, the two authors come together for a second time to continue their rich conversation on the similarities and differences between the two modalities they’ve created, and to take a more specific look at how both of their works have drawn from the spiritual elements of the human experience. 

Drs. Schwartz and Heller begin their conversation sharing their own journeys of understanding spirituality and how it fits into their work. Dr. Schwartz shares how early on, his direct work with clients challenged the common understanding from traditional psychology, and specifically developmental psychology, and he searched to find his own truth. “First of all, I couldn’t hold the attachment theories’ belief that to have any [Self] you had to have gotten a certain kind of ‘good enough’ parenting at a certain critical period of your childhood, because many of my clients had been tortured on a daily basis when they were young. So there was no way you could explain that being there if you had to posit that they got it from an external relationship.” As someone who was not religious or spiritually minded, his exploration of this territory with clients led him to spirituality, which introduced him to new ideas about the nature of human experience.

Dr. Heller goes on to share several spiritual experiences he had throughout his life, including doing breathwork and experiences during long distance running, which led to an exploration of his own relationship to spirituality and a commitment to spiritual practice. Although he no longer identifies with any one spiritual or religious approach, this deep level of spiritual inquiry and engagement informs his interventions when working with clients to this day: “When I’m working with people, I’m in a very quiet place in myself. There’s an openness and a curiosity, and I’m very present in my body and in the moment.” He goes on to share his perspective that grew from his studies into different spiritual approaches as well as his own experiences. “Ultimately…most human symptoms are a result of disconnection, from the Self, other people, and the true source of the universe.” Dr. Heller explains how NARM is about working with this connection and disconnection process, and exploring the obstacles that get in the way of deeper connections that people seek and long for. 

The pair reflect on their shared belief that no matter the trauma someone goes through, there is always something deep within us that remains unaffected and whole. In IFS, Dr. Schwartz describes this essential, unaffected part “the Self” (with a capital S), while in NARM, Dr. Heller describes it as our innate movement toward connection, health and aliveness, often emerging as intentionality and self-agency.

Throughout their conversation, they discuss the close similarities between IFS and NARM in intention and understanding, and take the time to also compare the differences. Both modalities recognize that our true nature is one of connection and compassion. As Dr. Schwartz states, “You don’t have to build up the muscle of compassion, because if you just get the constraints to your natural compassion to relax, then you have plenty of compassion.” Dr. Heller agrees with this view, and describes how NARM sees these ‘constraints’ through the lens of developmental trauma. He describes: “Children… will foreclose access and connection to…deep, vulnerable, open, heartful parts of themselves…when there is environmental failure, in order to protect the attachment relationship.”

They discuss the role of ‘parts’ in IFS and how these ‘parts’ relate to NARM’s understanding of old identifications. A key difference that emerges between the modalities is that in IFS the ‘parts’ are seen as nouns — truly distinct entities within an individual, that are burdened with responsibilities they may not want (ex: the critical ‘part’). In NARM, the identifications are seen as processes in which are actively created through time (ex: I am criticizing myself). Each model works with these ‘parts’ and identifications in a different way to support clients to free themselves into a more whole understanding of themselves in the present moment. 

Dr. Schwartz and Dr. Heller close this episode by unpacking the ways that some spiritual traditions can actually lead to spiritual bypass and the “splitting” of a person, meaning they view parts of themselves as ‘bad,’ or certain emotions (like anger) as negative. They both believe the effects of making parts of ourselves or our emotions bad results in people pushing away or disconnecting from aspects of their authentic experience as part of the spiritual journey.  Dr. Heller describes how important it was for him to take a different perspective in NARM: “I make the point that there are no destructive emotions. There are destructive behaviors. And so as we integrate the powerful energies of these emotions, and understand what they’re trying to communicate, then they transform [and] become an aliveness and expansion…” Dr. Schwartz resonates with this perspective, and sees a need to call back in the ‘parts’ of the Self that have been exiled, rather than using a spiritual bypass to reject those parts and leave them unintegrated. 

While IFS and NARM are both known as being exciting, emerging models for healing complex trauma, this episode highlights that Drs. Schwartz and Heller acknowledge that the deeper focus in both approaches is on the Self, that internal place within us all that provides the foundation for our lives despite the complexity of wounding and traumas that one has experienced.  As their conversation concludes, they reflect on this beginning of a meaningful, powerful relationship between two very important therapeutic models. What might the future hold for IFS and NARM working together to bring healing into our world?

In this episode of Transforming Trauma, host Sarah Buino facilitates an important discussion between NARM creator Dr. Laurence Heller and Dr. Christina Bethell, researcher, author, policy advocate, and professor at Johns Hopkins University and the Bloomberg School of Public Health.  Dr. Bethell is on the Board of Directors for the Campaign for Trauma-Informed Policy and Practice (CTIPP) and is part of a team of trauma-informed advocates who developed the brief: A Trauma-Informed Agenda for the First 100 Days of the Biden-Harris Administration. Dr. Bethell is leading an effort to promote an agenda of healing and prevention through safe, stable, nurturing relationships, in policy and practice. She is currently involved in multiple research projects focusing on trauma healing, including an article with Dr. Heller, and how to scale trauma-informed trainings for health care professionals on a national level. 

Dr. Bethell has had the opportunity to testify before U.S. Congress advocating for trauma-informed care, and is working with members of the American Academy of Pediatrics to evolve the national conversation from our current understanding of Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) and toxic stress, to a greater focus on promoting relational health.  Dr. Bethell’s work has centered on creating the research base to “promote family resilience and parent-child connection, and looking at social determinants [for health] like alcoholism and mental health problems, emotional neglect, or emotional abuse.”

Dr. Heller and Dr. Bethell reflect with Sarah their shared focus on spreading effective trauma-informed training to helping professionals who work with clients and communities impacted by trauma. Both Drs. Bethell and Heller share their view of the importance of centering relational and somatic attunement when treating childhood trauma, creating a process that can be replicated, without being manualized. As Dr. Bethell describes, it’s necessary to identify the “common elements and principles of practice, and core competencies,” while honoring that relationships can never be taught in a protocol. This poses a challenge for NARM and other similar modalities that highlight and honor the full human experience, and promote a deeper understanding of nuanced and caring relationships. The pressure to achieve Evidence-Based status often leads therapeutic approaches to follow strict protocols that can lead clients – particularly those that have experienced complex trauma – feeling labeled, reduced, misattuned and even objectified. Dr. Heller shares his concerns about manualized therapies and also his mission of promoting NARM as a humane treatment to those that have experienced complex trauma.

Dr. Bethell suggests that, in fact, there is a need to “flip the script” on how we understand what is the most effective parts of Evidenced Based practices, and begin looking at the common principles and elements that create healthy relationships to support healing. She brings in the exciting movement toward centering medical care on therapeutic presence, and research that is demonstrating that compassion is actually at the center of all other interventions. As she says, “it’s kind of like rewiring Maslow’s hierarchy and putting the connection at the center.”  A theme throughout the conversation is the need to center ‘human-ness’ in the helping professionals’ presence, between the provider and the patient, as well as how the provider relates to themselves.

Drs. Heller and Bethell agree that there is a strong need for more trauma-education and normalization generally, so that as a society we recognize that childhood trauma happens to everyone (albeit in different degrees of severity), and that addressing one’s unresolved trauma is a necessary part of working as a helping professional.  As Dr. Heller states, “the people who are doing this kind of work and research are not acknowledging their own fears of connection, their own fears of vulnerability, their own issues with even having compassion for their own suffering.” To do this, providers, researchers, and policy advocates who are leading the trauma-informed movement need to be willing to be in touch with their own vulnerability, and willing to address their own unresolved trauma, rather than treat the topic of complex trauma as if it can be studied and implemented from a totally objective perspective. 

They close their conversation discussing the recent shifts within healthcare to assessing, treating and understanding trauma and resilience. They reflect on what is leading to these shifts, including more nuanced research in child and human development, advances in brain science, and re-focusing funding streams to address ‘diseases of despair’, such as addiction and behavioral health. This focus on trauma-informed care has led to the need for effective trauma trainings for helping professionals all over the world. Many helping professionals recognize the basis of health and resilience as being about connection and relationship, but they do not yet have the advanced clinical skills to implement the kind of changes to their practice that are needed. 

Drs. Bethell and Heller both agree the NARM Training Institute is at the forefront of what this trauma-informed training could look like for helping professionals from various fields. Dr. Bethell ends the episode with encouragement and a ‘call to arms’ for all NARM-trained, and other trauma-informed professionals, to step into places of leadership and bring their perspective and skills to healthcare, mental health, education and other social systems. As she describes, “[These systems are] aching for support and help on how to ground the concepts of healing, recognizing… developmental trauma, and doing something about it.”

“I remember asking my therapist, what does self-love even feel like? And I’d had fleeting moments of experiencing it. Now it just is. It’s just there. And that’s beyond any expectation that I ever thought I would have. And that’s what I think of when I think of “transforming trauma.”” – Sarah Buino

In this special year-end episode celebrating the first year anniversary of the Transforming Trauma podcast, our host Sarah Buino and NARM Senior Trainer Brad Kammer reflect on this first year of Transforming Trauma! 

Brad shares that when the NARM Training Institute was founded in 2018, the intention was “to do our part in bringing trauma-informed work to so many individuals, families and communities that are dealing with the effects of complex trauma.”  While the NARM Training Institute has been mainly focused on training mental health and other helping professionals in the NARM approach, they have also been committed to making NARM more accessible to those in need.

During a NARM Training in Chicago, Brad had the idea to create a podcast that would be widely available, free, and bring important messages about complex trauma to listeners everywhere.  He invited Sarah and together they worked toward creating a podcast that would capture the magic in the work to share with the world – and thus began Transforming Trauma!

Since January 2020, Transforming Trauma has had over 50,000 downloads in more than eighty countries, listenership has grown over 300%, and it has been ranked in the top 10 mental health podcasts on Apple Podcasts. 

Sarah and Brad reflect on the inspiring guests they’ve had on who have shared their expertise, dedication, compassion and heartfulness in their work of healing trauma.  They reminisce about their guests from within the NARM community who have shared with great passion how they are applying NARM in various ways.  They also express gratitude to their other remarkable guests, including several experts in the field of trauma-informed care, as well as several social justice advocates whose work relates to the cultural and systemic dimensions of complex trauma.  

They fondly reflect on the meaningful conversations and connections between NARM creator Dr. Laurence Heller, and the dedicated NARM Trainers who are bringing this work to communities around the world.  Sarah and Brad also share their deep gratitude for their Transforming Trauma production team.  

As Sarah and Brad celebrate their first year of the Transforming Trauma podcast, they express how moved and inspired they feel to know that in their very first year, Transforming Trauma has made such an impact on people’s lives.  With humility and excitement, they commit to continuing to use this platform to promote and support personal and collective healing of complex trauma.

In this episode of Transforming Trauma, our host Sarah Buino interviews NARM Practitioner and coach Iris McAlpin. Iris specializes in eating disorder recovery, complex trauma, and self-sabotage. Iris also hosts a podcast called Pure Curiosity which seeks to facilitate nuanced conversations about the human experience and de-stigmatize mental health challenges. Iris shares that NARM has changed her life in being able to notice the ways that she puts pressure on herself and the ways that she tells herself that she ‘should’ be showing up in the world. Her intention for this episode is for listeners to also notice and be able to soften around the pressure that they place on themselves. 

Sarah and Iris dive into how Iris began her work in eating disorder recovery, which began with her own healing and recovery from bulimia. Iris found that as she progressed in her recovery and was able to get control of the behaviors of her eating disorder, she began to turn her attention to her unresolved trauma, which was mostly relational in nature, that was at the root of the behaviors. NARM helped her to see this theme in a new way, as she came to understand that not only binging and purging, but “many other behaviors that we… throw under the umbrella of self-sabotage are really just coping tools,” for unhealed relational and attachment traumas. Iris saw that eating disorder behaviors are “a very ‘effective’ way to manage the dysregulation and… intense feelings that come up as a result of complex trauma.”  Iris has been impacted by the emphasis in NARM not being on the behavior of a person, but rather on the inner-state that is underneath, driving the behavior. 

To understand this more deeply, Iris takes the listeners through a deeper look at the trauma of diet culture, in which clients deal with intense self loathing and self hatred, shame of their bodies and body image, and obsessive thinking about food. Iris discusses the common understanding of eating disorders, and the misconception that they are driven by vanity. Iris sees this very differently, through the lens of complex trauma, and describes that “because we live in a culture with a lot of thin privilege and a lot of fatphobia, it has nothing to do with vanity… really it has to do with belonging.” She further specifies that even if there is a supportive community around the person struggling, the larger society still is not supportive. Iris shares that this desire for belonging is the key motivator for disordered eating, and until the client addresses this issue, the behaviors will continue.

Iris has found that NARM helps the eating conversations fade into the background, as individuals begin to place the emphasis on their relationship with themselves. She has found that to be true in her own recovery, sharing that “Anytime I was sort of trying to do a ‘frontal assault’ on the eating disorder, like trying to really focus on and dismantle that, it was kind of a trap for me.” Instead, she finds that by “working on other areas of my life, and examining those attitudes and beliefs and behaviors, it felt safer.” NARM has given her the context for this “ripple effect,” as she calls it, giving her a deeper understanding how, by attending to those deeper layers, we often find the behaviors organically begin to improve. 

Iris and Sarah go on to discuss the Autonomy survival style in NARM, and how this adaptive survival strategy results in a lot of self-sabotaging behaviors. “There’s a lot of pressuring of the self. There’s a lot of negative self-talk. There’s a lot of efforting and rebelliousness… not only rebelling against perceived authority, but also rebelling against our own internal goals and agendas, which is part of the formation of a lot of self-sabotage behaviors.” These self-sabotaging behaviors can cause a range of behaviors from food issues, to toxic relationship dynamics, to procrastination, to fear of success. Iris expresses that NARM has helped her to ground her work in the utility and intelligence of these behaviors, rather unconsciously shaming her clients (as they shame themselves) for having them. 

Iris shares several ideas of changes that she would like to see in the field of treating eating disorders. The first that she names is this shift away from focusing on eating behaviors, and getting to the deeper causes of those behaviors. Next, she would love to see trauma-informed models such as the NeuroAffective Relational Model, used in treating eating disorders. Finally, she is hopeful and interested in the re-emerging field of psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, and feels that this treatment can have profound effects in supporting clients to recover from eating disorders when administered in a safe and therapeutic setting. 

The two discuss the pitfalls and trauma that is inherent in seeing progress — whether it be client progress, our own healing, or our cultural progress — as a one-way, linear process. NARM has given both Sarah and Iris a broader understanding of what progress means, and as Iris shares, allows her to see that our healing often happens through “hidden paths that we’re not able to see until much later.” 

The two end their conversation discussing one of the biggest learnings that Iris has gathered in her work with complex trauma; she acknowledges that doing this deeper level of work can feel really scary at times. She shares about her own experience of confronting her triggers, and how NARM has taught her to work with her fear by using curiosity to guide her. “I really see those triggers as an invitation to open.” This ability to see that nothing is ‘wrong’ with our survival styles, and instead look at our growing awareness of ourselves as an opportunity to learn and make different choices is central to the NARM process.

In this episode of Transforming Trauma, our host Sarah Buino is joined by therapist, social worker, and author Daniel Shaw to discuss his seminal book Traumatic Narcissism: Relational Systems of Subjugation. Daniel explores the theme of traumatic narcissism from a developmental and trauma-informed perspective. In his work, he connects the challenging symptoms and behaviors of clients diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder to the deeper understanding that they were raised in a highly traumatic environment by narcissistic caregivers. His underlying message for listeners is that, “It’s important to understand what’s going on in the mind of the narcissistic traumatizer in order to help patients free themselves from those relationships, in order for therapists to help the patient, and in order for the patients to help themselves.”

Daniel began his research in social work after leaving a religious group that he participated in for thirteen years, and which he later came to identify as a cult. In this group, Daniel experienced traumatic abuse through the cult leader, who “needed to inflate their own narcissism by controlling others.” This dynamic is exactly what he came to see represented in the relational system of the traumatizing narcissist, which he identified as a “system of subjugation.”

Unlike perspectives that can ostracize or vilify narcissistic tendencies, Daniel’s perspective on narcissism is very similar to that of the NeuroAffective Relational Model (NARM). Narcissism is understood to be a common trait that all personalities experience to some degree. While Daniel acknowledges that this trait can be quite harmless, for example “sometimes people are just a little more self centered”, his work focuses on the narcissistic person who is predatory in their behavior, and who seeks to establish relational dynamics in which they can control others “through belittling and intimidating and humiliating.” Daniel describes these individuals as highly seductive at first, and then after their initial phase of seduction others become subjugated to the narcissist. “So that person actually … comes to believe that they are bad and the narcissist is good. And the reason the narcissist is cruel to them is because of their badness.” He goes on to explain that the victim of traumatic narcissism is so affected by this relational system, that it is incredibly difficult to stop blaming themselves or feeling alienated from themselves. 

In a healthy parent-child relationship, the parent honors and understands a child’s natural dependency, and allows them to gradually grow more independent over time through healthy individuation. This healthy individuation celebrates the child’s growing independence, while also allowing the child to come back and check in to re-establish safety as they slowly venture farther and farther into the world. Daniel and Sarah come together with Daniel’s statement that “We are born completely dependent and there’s… no reason on earth why a child should grow up ashamed of that dependency.” However, the narcissist is not brought up in this healthy environment. Narcissistic parents resent the child’s dependency, shame them for it, and create a traumatizing environment in which the child’s dependency on their parent becomes the source of pain and suffering. These children often grow up with one of two outcomes: to become profoundly depressed with low self-esteem, or to take on aspects of this narcissism themselves and recreate relationships with this relational system of power-over and control through humiliation. As Daniel states, the traumatized child can then become the narcissist, who begins “disavowing and denying any kind of dependency, any kind of need, and associating [need] with shame. And then the person that they choose to relate to has to carry that neediness and that shame for them.”

Sarah and Daniel discuss the common thread in Daniel’s work and NARM. Much like in NARM, in which the therapists support clients to reconnect with their own agency, Daniel’s intention in working with people that have experienced narcissistic abuse is to help them “retrieve a faith in themselves that has been taken from them by the narcissistic abuser.” In both NARM and Daniel’s work, the therapist supports the client to raise their awareness of what has become internalized from their childhood abuse, including the vicious ways that these clients often degenerate and belittle themselves throughout their lives. This is a  “powerful moment” in the therapeutic process, as the client begins to recognize that they themselves have taken on the role of their abuser through their own self-objectification. 

Sarah then turns the conversation to the complexity of narcissism in a family system. Oftentimes, there is not only the traumatic narcissist who is creating relationships of subjectation, but there is also the covert narcissist, who is often the one that is standing by and watching what is unfolding, and not protecting the children from the abuse that is taking place. This person is essentially sacrificing the child to the relationship, which is a form of narcissistic abuse. Though there are common gender dynamics in these family configurations, both Sarah and Daniel are careful to note that these forms of narcissistic abuse are truly ‘gender blind,’ and can happen in any family system. 

Daniel describes the healing from these forms of traumatic narcissism he sees when the client is able to look at themselves without judgment, and with compassion for their own experience. This form of self-inquiry is about re-discovering their own relationship to themselves through compassionate understanding. Sarah and Daniel close by discussing the role of the therapist, and how therapists can support the client in this process of self-reflection through being fully attuned and letting them know that we are “in their corner.” If the therapist is able to do this, the therapeutic relationship then becomes a place where the client can begin to feel this unconditional, fully present relationship from another, so that they can begin to feel it for themselves. 

A much more in-depth look at the NARM perspective on narcissism is available through the NARM Masters Training on working with Personality Disorders.