Category: Transforming Trauma Podcast

In this episode of Transforming Trauma, we are joined by Deb Dana, LCSW, founding member of the Polyvagal Institute and Coordinator of the Traumatic Stress Research Consortium at the Kinsey Institute, Indiana University. Deb shares with our host, Sarah, about her work with the Polyvagal Theory, a clinical theory developed by Dr. Stephen Porges, and how she has translated the theory into clinical application, including everyday application. Deb describes the Polyvagal framework that views the nervous system as a common denominator of human experience, and shares, “It’s my belief we should all learn how to operate our nervous systems in some way.”

Deb breaks down the Polyvagal Theory for listeners, stating that although it is a complex and layered model, there is also a simplicity to it. In order to create simplicity, Deb shares three organizing principles: hierarchy, neuroception, and co-regulation.The Polyvagal Theory identifies a hierarchy of three nervous system states that people move through: a regulated ventral vagal state, a sympathetic energized fight-or-flight state, and a disconnected dorsal vagal state. Neuroception describes how the nervous system takes in information below the level of our conscious awareness via three pathways: inside our body, outside our body, and in-between our body systems. Deb shares how she uses neuroception as a therapist to support her clients’ awareness of their nervous system. When she is anchored and regulated in her own experience, she’s able to notice dysregulation within herself and her client and reflect it back to her client when appropriate. Lastly, Deb describes co-regulation as a biological imperative — it is a state that all people need in order to survive — nervous systems seek to co-regulate with other nervous systems.

With these three principles in mind, Deb talks further about how different life experiences, including developmental trauma, result in nervous systems moving in and out of regulation and dysregulation in different ways. Deb says, “It’s not so much what happened to you, it’s how your nervous system responds to what happens to you.” This understanding is aligned with the NeuroAffective Relational Model (NARM) and highlights how different people experience and adapt to the same traumatic experience in different ways.

Deb describes a “safety-danger equation” that people unconsciously calculate in order to determine what feels safe for them at any given moment. Sarah shares how this orientation aligns with what is referred to in NARM as Adaptive Survival Styles, the ways that children learn to adapt to developmental trauma and which gets carried into adulthood as filters for viewing Self, others and one’s life.

Deb highlights that dysregulation is a natural process, and it is an unrealistic and unattainable goal to be regulated and in a ventral state all the time. What is important is to be able to find our way back to an open, safe, connected state after dysregulation and disconnection. Deb says, “The job is not to never have a rupture, but to notice when there are ruptures and to be able to repair them.”

Deb and Sarah both emphasize the importance of curiosity and being able to sit with the unknown, and how that leads to a greater awareness of our nervous system states. In NARM, the process of inquiry invites curiosity and compassion for the clients’ experience and nervous system states, which supports what in NARM is called an “Embodied Adult Consciousness”.

Deb adds that she sees inquiry as a way of taking a look at the stories we tell ourselves about our nervous system states — often self-blame, self- shame, and self-criticism. The conversation concludes with Deb and Sarah sharing the powerful outcomes of having more awareness of our nervous system states, more curiosity, and more compassion for ourselves.

On this episode of Transforming Trauma, our host Sarah Buino is joined by Marjorie Florestal. Marjorie is a trauma-informed law professor, storyteller, and fiction writer. Marjorie trained in the NeuroAffective Relational Model (NARM) and shares how she is incorporating her understanding of complex trauma and NARM into her work as a law professor. Throughout the episode, Sarah and Marjorie discuss the integration of trauma, law, storytelling, and ways to support healing through a trauma-informed lens.

Marjorie describes her journey from studying law, working as an international trade lawyer, to becoming trauma-informed. Her journey was fueled by curiosity about her own trauma. “[At first,] I wanted to get as far away from the emotions as I could possibly get”, she says. While serving as a trade lawyer for the Clinton administration, she realized how much emotions play into negotiations. She decided to become a law professor as a way to still be in the field without having to deal with emotions – that is, until she was impacted by a student who was tearful in her classroom. “After the student left, I thought, oh, something has to change within me.” She realized she was ready to learn more about her relationship to her profession, as well as herself. This led her to study psychology.

While still a law professor, Marjorie completed a Masters’ degree in Jungian Psychology where she met Brad Kammer, NARM Senior Faculty. Marjorie shares how she was greatly impacted by Brad’s teaching, not only professionally but also personally. She followed her intuition that learning the NeuroAffective Relational Model would somehow benefit her in better supporting her law students.

Marjorie and Sarah discuss the struggles many law students have with their mental health, specifically in their last year of school. Marjorie states, “40% of our students are clinically depressed and then it just snowballs from there into the profession.” Marjorie shares that she is currently writing her dissertation on the intersection of learning law and complex trauma. “There is some aspect of trauma going on, and there’s also some aspect of a kind of a developmental stage going on.” She postulates that students’ ongoing struggles with mental health come from the convergence of the trauma and the developmental stages they’re experiencing. She further explains that law school is highly stressful and when students have been taught that there is no place for emotions, it can result in high levels of anxiety and depression.

Marjorie excitedly shares with Sarah that she plans to utilize what she’s learned in her NARM training and incorporate that into her class that she’s developing called “Trauma-Informed Lawyering”. Marjorie hopes that if we can help law students with trauma, we can change the culture of the whole profession.

Sarah inquires more about how Marjorie plans to use NARM in her classroom. Marjorie shares that what NARM has helped her and her students with most is slowing down. She explains that when she supports her students to slow down, they can then notice their own internal experience. Marjorie shares that what most often comes up for students when they slow down is their struggle to trust. When students are moving fast and hyper focused on the context of the negotiation, they are less likely to be able to access their own internal awareness. By slowing down, the students support their connection to themselves. She acknowledges how impactful this is on their wellbeing, and their work.

Marjorie and Sarah also explore how the trauma-informed movement can be a way to raise awareness around vicarious trauma for lawyers. She shares with Sarah that those who are involved in the courts are often forced to see pictures or hear stories that are more harmful than helpful to a case or a negotiation. Marjories believes the more we can understand the impact of trauma, these practices will change and become trauma-informed. Marjorie then introduces Sarah and listeners to the notion of therapeutic jurisprudence. Which she defines as, “an approach to law that seeks to use law as a healing modality.” She further explains that this is a way of empowering judges to come up with solutions that aren’t about punishment and instead rehabilitation, such as offering assistance for addiction rather than jail.

Marjorie also shares her experience as being a woman of color in teaching law, and how she relates to the current state of criminal justice in the United States. She shares, “as a black woman I could not fathom being part of a system that wholesale channels people of color into cages.” Marjorie recently facilitated an hour-long session at her law school looking at racial trauma and the healing potential of myths and stories.

This episode concludes with Marjorie sharing a beautiful story called, The Stolen Mother Moon. She expresses that she has a personal connection to the story due to the loss of her mother when she was nine. She relates this story to collective trauma, symbolic of the stolen mothers from Africa who were abused and enslaved yet they persevered and demanded justice. She states, “there will always be darkness, and we can see that darkness as an opportunity for more work to be done.”

In this episode of Transforming Trauma, our host Sarah is joined by Dave Berger, MFT, PT, LCMHC, MA, SEP. Dave is a somatic psychotherapist, physical therapist, bodyworker and educator. He owns and runs a training program for trauma practitioners called BASE: Relational Bodywork and Somatic Education Training. Dave is also a Trainer for Somatic Experiencing International and Legacy Faculty for Dr. Peter Levine’s Ergos Institute of Somatic Education. Dave has over 40 years of experience working with trauma and chronic pain and integrates his knowledge of anatomy, physiology and function of the body, and of psychological and relational dynamics to help clients improve their physical well being and psychological health.

Dave’s intention for this episode is to educate and inform practitioners about the need to understand how the structures and systems in the physical body are involved with trauma and trauma healing. Throughout the episode, Sarah and Dave talk about the overlap between Complex Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (C-PTSD) and its impact on the organization of the physical body, and its correlation to chronic pain.

Dave states, “my area of interest and fascination is working with people who’ve had chronic distress.” Dave explains that the relationship between chronic stress and various medical syndromes, including pain syndromes, is not well understood. Dave shares that his experiences have helped him develop the understanding that “chronic distress patterns lead to and are part of medical syndromes.” He finds that these syndromes manifest in physical as well as psychological symptoms and disorders, and that it’s important to know and understand both.

As Sarah and Dave reflect on the field of trauma and specifically how to address complex trauma, Dave describes how he uses his personal experiences to inform his work. He explains that “the relationship is everything.” He defines this as the client feeling felt by the practitioner. He also describes this as the “safe container” that happens in the therapeutic process that can lead to healing. Dave explains that a person’s physiology will naturally shift as they continue to experience a safe attuned therapeutic process. Sarah and Dave reflect on the similarities between Dave’s perspective and the NARM perspective, and they both agree that to address complex trauma the interventions have to include the body, the mind and be embedded in relationship.

Dave and Sarah also talk about both social and cultural trauma and what that trauma looks like at the body-level. Dave talks about resolving trauma at the body level, and he names the importance of being in the moment and naming the lived experiences happening in the here and now in the body. The two reflect on the importance of doing personal healing work in order to be an effective practitioner, as well as create deeper connections in our society and culture. Dave believes that there is a very real need to connect with one another on a human level. He states, “How can we see each other as a human being first, how can I feel me as a human being and you feel you as a human being and connect on that level?” Dave believes that for this to happen we have to have the capacity to be in our own bodies if we want to be able to invite deeper relationships and hold complexity. Sarah reflects on how NARM invites therapists to explore their own relationship with themselves and how this impacts the therapeutic relationship.

As the conversation comes to a close Dave reflects on how his trainings have impacted his students and the ripple effect of how his students then impact their clients. Sarah and Dave reflect on transformative nature of somatic work. Dave ends with a quote by Peter Levine that trauma “is not a life sentence,” signifying the possibilities of transforming trauma. Sarah reminds us that this idea inspired the intention, and name, of the NARM podcast, Transforming Trauma.

In this episode of Transforming Trauma, our host Sarah is joined by neuroscientist Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett. Initially working as a clinical psychologist, Lisa went on to study emotions and how our brains work, asking questions about the neuro-biological basis for mental and physical health. Lisa has written two books: The Secret Life of the Brain, about how emotions are made, and her newest book, Seven and Half Lessons About the Brain, a book of essays. She describes the essays as “neuroscience nuggets to live a different life, a better life, or maybe be happy with the life that you have.” 

Since the NeuroAffective Relational Model (NARM) is informed by the latest findings within neuroscience, and particularly in the areas of attachment, emotions and trauma, Lisa’s work has much to contribute to more effective clinical interventions. Core to both of Lisa’s books is her assertion that “the most important job of our brains is to run a budget for our bodies.” Similar to the concept of Self-Regulation, she describes, “your brain didn’t evolve to think and feel and see…it evolved to control your body.” 

Her view differs from commonly held perceptions of the triune brain, which many psychotherapeutic models have used to support their clinical approach. Lisa identifies the triune brain theory as a Western notion based on an idea of human morality.  She states that this theory relies on the belief that our instincts (“lizard brain”) and inner emotions (limbic system) are in constant struggle with our “rational side” (cerebral cortex) for control of our behaviors, and that when our rational side wins, we are deemed righteous, moral and healthy. When our emotions or instincts (“inner beast”) win, we are deemed immoral or sick because we didn’t work hard enough to tame our impulses. She says that this morality view of the brain informed scientists into the 20th century, despite research in the 1970s showing evidence otherwise.

Lisa shares that what we know now about brain functioning is that every experience we have – a hug, an insult, a look – impacts our brain metabolically. “If you’re sleep deprived, if you aren’t eating healthfully, if you’re dealing with constant strain and stress, it’s very likely that your body budget will be running a deficit, in which case it’s going to be harder for your brain to update and adjust its internal model to match the current circumstances.” This will impact learning and body-movement especially, since they are the most costly of energy expenditures.

Lisa asserts that our body budgets form throughout childhood. Because an infant cannot manage its own nervous system, caregivers are the one who must maintain the infant’s body budget. All the things we do to care for infants: feed, cuddle, talk, make eye contact, help “to wire the baby’s brain” so that the baby, over the course of 20 years, learns to manage their own body budget. When there is neglect, or a chronically unresponsive parent, the baby’s brain wires to that experience. That means, Lisa says, “that the baby’s brain is wiring itself in a way that starts to pay a metabolic tax right off the bat.” These taxes add up over time, underlying and impacting the likelihood of illness later in life. 

In regards to emotions and the brain, Lisa says that “emotions are really a story that your brain is telling itself about the cause of the internal sensations in relation to what’s going on around you in the world.” She says, “when you feel bad, it isn’t necessarily an indication that something is wrong in the world” and neither is it an indication that you are flawed. What it does tell you is that “something happened that is relevant.” Lisa reports that our feeling good or bad is an indication of body budget: when our body budgets are “flush” we feel good, whereas when we run a deficit, even a temporary one, we feel bad. Our brains do not know why, just that something is up that we then have to figure out. Our brains go on to make guesses based on our past experience.

Lisa shares that our brains work predictively, meaning that when we see or hear something, it is because our brain was already preparing itself to see or feel that data. That data then confirms the prediction, or changes it. “[Changing it] is learning,” she says. “If you are running on autopilot, it means that your brain is predicting and the sense data are confirming…but when you shift your attention to something new, deliberately,” as in therapy, or mindfulness, “you have broken the chain of automatic prediction.” That can sometimes feel disorienting. Sarah connects the possibility of this disorientation to experiences NARM clients report when they start to disidentify from previously held beliefs about themselves. 

Sarah and Lisa end by talking about what this information can offer. Lisa names that knowledge about our brains gives us more choices and options, as well as increased “responsibility” for ourselves. This responsibility aligns with NARM and the concept of Self-Agency. NARM also aligns with Lisa’s research, that though we cannot change the past, we can change how we relate to it. Lisa closes by sharing the key invitation from her book, “to think about what it means to be human, and what kind of a human you really want to be.”

In this episode of Transforming Trauma, host Sarah Buino interviews Adar Weinreb, a social activist in Israel who runs a grassroots project called Sulha, which comes from the Arabic word for “reconciliation” and “to make peace”.  Their goal is to create an inclusive community of people from all sides of the ideological spectrum who can engage in nuanced dialogues on important issues, transform the way people communicate, and inspire real-world action.  In this inspiring episode, Adar shares his journey in learning new and effective ways to bridge the most polarized human conflicts. 

Adar focuses his activism on understanding the challenging dynamics within the Israeli and Palestinian communities in order to build bridges of understanding between the two communities. He describes the most fundamental aspect of his work:  “If you’re an Israeli or Palestinian or whatever conflict you might be involved with, it could be Republican and Democrats. If you ask somebody about themselves, they will share. And once they see that you care about them, they will be much more open to hearing who you are and what your side is.” This willingness to listen deeply to the experience of the two sides has been the pathway through which his activism and advocacy for social change has entered the world.

Adar and Sarah begin by discussing the history of the ongoing trauma between Israel and Palestine over the last 100 years. Adar summarizes the clash between the Jewish Zionist movement of returning to their homeland in Israel, who we refer to now as the Israelis, and the people who were inhabiting that land when they returned, who we refer to now as the Palestinians. Adar understands that though there are different narratives on either side regarding who started the conflict and violence, the reality is that there is now a long history of intergenerational trauma between two closely related groups of people who have national aspirations for the same land. 

Adar aligns with a NARM-informed perspective in that he works to not take sides between the two sides of the conflict, and works to hold increasing complexity and the uncertainty and distress that goes along with that. He shares, “I’m not making a comparison between injustices. It’s simply a recognition that at the end of the day, the people on both sides are harmed from this conflict. And as a humanist, I approach it as valuing all life of human worth.” Similar to the way NARM perceives how trauma creates objectification and dehumanization, Adar’s work focuses on the elements required for mutual recognition of humanization and supporting the process of intersubjectivity. 

He goes on to discuss the different kinds of cultural and intergenerational trauma that both Israelis and Palestinians have been and continue to experience. He reflects on the impact of this ongoing, unresolved complex trauma, and how it serves to radicalize individuals and groups of people against an ‘enemy,’ making it extremely hard to feel empathy for those on the ‘other side.’

As Adar and Sarah reflect on the disconnection created by othering and dehumanization, they also explore the difference that it makes to connect with and humanize the other side.  Adar specifically highlights the powerful impact of deeply listening to the experience of individuals on “the other side”. Similar to the NARM pillar of inquiry, Adar focuses on the value of openness and curiosity to another person’s perspective, whether one agrees or disagrees with that perspective. As he shares, “We don’t know one another, and we have a lifetime of teachings and fear to stop us from wanting to get to know one another. But I have noticed from experience and in the work I do… after just a few minutes of dialogue, you could see how a lifetime of teachings and beliefs begin to change.”

Adar and Sarah reflect on the nuances of what happens when we begin to humanize the other side of a conflict, and how this move toward connection can cause a negative reaction if we are not able to authentically integrate all of the ways that we are affected first. They both agree that an essential part of this work is not to ask anyone to bypass their authentic experience, and to instead invite their authentic experience to be a part of these at-times painful conversations. Adar explores his understanding that while anger is a natural part of the human experience that helps to motivate us, it is also something that he is concerned about within activist communities due to the level of burnout that he sees. Sarah brings in a NARM perspective on anger, describing the ways that developmental trauma affects an individual’s ability to relate in a healthy and mature way with their anger, and instead acting out our anger on others, or acting it in on ourselves. As Sarah sees it, “When you talk about activists really leaning into their anger, what I think we might say from a NARM perspective is that might be coming from a place of child consciousness, which is the trauma speaking.” 

Their conversation closes with Adar and Sarah unpacking the importance of understanding human psychology – and particularly the nature of complex trauma – in order to be effective at social change. Adar sees two sides of the same coin of activism: personal responsibility and systemic change. Adar and Sarah agree that by understanding psychological processes like complex trauma, and how we can work together to address complex trauma, we can learn to listen to each other, humanize each other, and ultimately can become more effective social activists. As Adar succinctly states: “If we want to be able to change the world, it comes down to humans changing themselves.”