Category: Transforming Trauma Podcast

In this episode of Transforming Trauma, our host Sarah is joined by neuroscientist Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett. Initially working as a clinical psychologist, Lisa went on to study emotions and how our brains work, asking questions about the neuro-biological basis for mental and physical health. Lisa has written two books: The Secret Life of the Brain, about how emotions are made, and her newest book, Seven and Half Lessons About the Brain, a book of essays. She describes the essays as “neuroscience nuggets to live a different life, a better life, or maybe be happy with the life that you have.” 

Since the NeuroAffective Relational Model (NARM) is informed by the latest findings within neuroscience, and particularly in the areas of attachment, emotions and trauma, Lisa’s work has much to contribute to more effective clinical interventions. Core to both of Lisa’s books is her assertion that “the most important job of our brains is to run a budget for our bodies.” Similar to the concept of Self-Regulation, she describes, “your brain didn’t evolve to think and feel and see…it evolved to control your body.” 

Her view differs from commonly held perceptions of the triune brain, which many psychotherapeutic models have used to support their clinical approach. Lisa identifies the triune brain theory as a Western notion based on an idea of human morality.  She states that this theory relies on the belief that our instincts (“lizard brain”) and inner emotions (limbic system) are in constant struggle with our “rational side” (cerebral cortex) for control of our behaviors, and that when our rational side wins, we are deemed righteous, moral and healthy. When our emotions or instincts (“inner beast”) win, we are deemed immoral or sick because we didn’t work hard enough to tame our impulses. She says that this morality view of the brain informed scientists into the 20th century, despite research in the 1970s showing evidence otherwise.

Lisa shares that what we know now about brain functioning is that every experience we have – a hug, an insult, a look – impacts our brain metabolically. “If you’re sleep deprived, if you aren’t eating healthfully, if you’re dealing with constant strain and stress, it’s very likely that your body budget will be running a deficit, in which case it’s going to be harder for your brain to update and adjust its internal model to match the current circumstances.” This will impact learning and body-movement especially, since they are the most costly of energy expenditures.

Lisa asserts that our body budgets form throughout childhood. Because an infant cannot manage its own nervous system, caregivers are the one who must maintain the infant’s body budget. All the things we do to care for infants: feed, cuddle, talk, make eye contact, help “to wire the baby’s brain” so that the baby, over the course of 20 years, learns to manage their own body budget. When there is neglect, or a chronically unresponsive parent, the baby’s brain wires to that experience. That means, Lisa says, “that the baby’s brain is wiring itself in a way that starts to pay a metabolic tax right off the bat.” These taxes add up over time, underlying and impacting the likelihood of illness later in life. 

In regards to emotions and the brain, Lisa says that “emotions are really a story that your brain is telling itself about the cause of the internal sensations in relation to what’s going on around you in the world.” She says, “when you feel bad, it isn’t necessarily an indication that something is wrong in the world” and neither is it an indication that you are flawed. What it does tell you is that “something happened that is relevant.” Lisa reports that our feeling good or bad is an indication of body budget: when our body budgets are “flush” we feel good, whereas when we run a deficit, even a temporary one, we feel bad. Our brains do not know why, just that something is up that we then have to figure out. Our brains go on to make guesses based on our past experience.

Lisa shares that our brains work predictively, meaning that when we see or hear something, it is because our brain was already preparing itself to see or feel that data. That data then confirms the prediction, or changes it. “[Changing it] is learning,” she says. “If you are running on autopilot, it means that your brain is predicting and the sense data are confirming…but when you shift your attention to something new, deliberately,” as in therapy, or mindfulness, “you have broken the chain of automatic prediction.” That can sometimes feel disorienting. Sarah connects the possibility of this disorientation to experiences NARM clients report when they start to disidentify from previously held beliefs about themselves. 

Sarah and Lisa end by talking about what this information can offer. Lisa names that knowledge about our brains gives us more choices and options, as well as increased “responsibility” for ourselves. This responsibility aligns with NARM and the concept of Self-Agency. NARM also aligns with Lisa’s research, that though we cannot change the past, we can change how we relate to it. Lisa closes by sharing the key invitation from her book, “to think about what it means to be human, and what kind of a human you really want to be.”

In this episode of Transforming Trauma, host Sarah Buino interviews Adar Weinreb, a social activist in Israel who runs a grassroots project called Sulha, which comes from the Arabic word for “reconciliation” and “to make peace”.  Their goal is to create an inclusive community of people from all sides of the ideological spectrum who can engage in nuanced dialogues on important issues, transform the way people communicate, and inspire real-world action.  In this inspiring episode, Adar shares his journey in learning new and effective ways to bridge the most polarized human conflicts. 

Adar focuses his activism on understanding the challenging dynamics within the Israeli and Palestinian communities in order to build bridges of understanding between the two communities. He describes the most fundamental aspect of his work:  “If you’re an Israeli or Palestinian or whatever conflict you might be involved with, it could be Republican and Democrats. If you ask somebody about themselves, they will share. And once they see that you care about them, they will be much more open to hearing who you are and what your side is.” This willingness to listen deeply to the experience of the two sides has been the pathway through which his activism and advocacy for social change has entered the world.

Adar and Sarah begin by discussing the history of the ongoing trauma between Israel and Palestine over the last 100 years. Adar summarizes the clash between the Jewish Zionist movement of returning to their homeland in Israel, who we refer to now as the Israelis, and the people who were inhabiting that land when they returned, who we refer to now as the Palestinians. Adar understands that though there are different narratives on either side regarding who started the conflict and violence, the reality is that there is now a long history of intergenerational trauma between two closely related groups of people who have national aspirations for the same land. 

Adar aligns with a NARM-informed perspective in that he works to not take sides between the two sides of the conflict, and works to hold increasing complexity and the uncertainty and distress that goes along with that. He shares, “I’m not making a comparison between injustices. It’s simply a recognition that at the end of the day, the people on both sides are harmed from this conflict. And as a humanist, I approach it as valuing all life of human worth.” Similar to the way NARM perceives how trauma creates objectification and dehumanization, Adar’s work focuses on the elements required for mutual recognition of humanization and supporting the process of intersubjectivity. 

He goes on to discuss the different kinds of cultural and intergenerational trauma that both Israelis and Palestinians have been and continue to experience. He reflects on the impact of this ongoing, unresolved complex trauma, and how it serves to radicalize individuals and groups of people against an ‘enemy,’ making it extremely hard to feel empathy for those on the ‘other side.’

As Adar and Sarah reflect on the disconnection created by othering and dehumanization, they also explore the difference that it makes to connect with and humanize the other side.  Adar specifically highlights the powerful impact of deeply listening to the experience of individuals on “the other side”. Similar to the NARM pillar of inquiry, Adar focuses on the value of openness and curiosity to another person’s perspective, whether one agrees or disagrees with that perspective. As he shares, “We don’t know one another, and we have a lifetime of teachings and fear to stop us from wanting to get to know one another. But I have noticed from experience and in the work I do… after just a few minutes of dialogue, you could see how a lifetime of teachings and beliefs begin to change.”

Adar and Sarah reflect on the nuances of what happens when we begin to humanize the other side of a conflict, and how this move toward connection can cause a negative reaction if we are not able to authentically integrate all of the ways that we are affected first. They both agree that an essential part of this work is not to ask anyone to bypass their authentic experience, and to instead invite their authentic experience to be a part of these at-times painful conversations. Adar explores his understanding that while anger is a natural part of the human experience that helps to motivate us, it is also something that he is concerned about within activist communities due to the level of burnout that he sees. Sarah brings in a NARM perspective on anger, describing the ways that developmental trauma affects an individual’s ability to relate in a healthy and mature way with their anger, and instead acting out our anger on others, or acting it in on ourselves. As Sarah sees it, “When you talk about activists really leaning into their anger, what I think we might say from a NARM perspective is that might be coming from a place of child consciousness, which is the trauma speaking.” 

Their conversation closes with Adar and Sarah unpacking the importance of understanding human psychology – and particularly the nature of complex trauma – in order to be effective at social change. Adar sees two sides of the same coin of activism: personal responsibility and systemic change. Adar and Sarah agree that by understanding psychological processes like complex trauma, and how we can work together to address complex trauma, we can learn to listen to each other, humanize each other, and ultimately can become more effective social activists. As Adar succinctly states: “If we want to be able to change the world, it comes down to humans changing themselves.”

 “Cultural traditions are on the forefront of wellness, for Native people — and for all people.” – Trilby Kerrigan

On this episode of Transforming Trauma, our host Sarah Buino has an engaging conversation with Trilby Kerrigan, a NARM-trained Behavioral Health Therapist at a Tribal health clinic in Northern California. Trilby is a member of the Karuk Tribe of California and is deeply committed to supporting community reconnection through education and treatment of complex trauma. Throughout the episode, Sarah and Trilby discuss historical, intergenerational, and cultural trauma, and ways to support healing of individuals, families and communities. They share how the reconnection to oneself is at the core of the healing process, and how Trilby finds the NeuroAffective Relational Model (NARM) to be a powerful approach that can lead to significant shifts for individuals and within Tribal communities.

Trilby describes her journey of becoming a therapist as “non-traditional”, but meant to be. In her thirties, Trilby was inspired by her children to go to college and pursue a Master’s degree in Social Work. Trilby wanted to find some way to promote healing within her local Tribal communities. She shares that Native communities have some of the highest health disparities, lack social services, and have experienced not only extensive historical trauma, but face ongoing trauma. While there are clinics established to support Native clients, Trilby says, “I feel like having a Native professional therapist was a missing piece in the community.”

Trilby shares that while there is a collective experience of trauma for various Native communities, the experience is unique to each person.  One area she has noticed to be universal for the clients she works with is how they tend to experience themselves as unworthy. This deep sense of unworthiness leads to negative impact on individuals and families, including many mental health challenges like depression and anxiety and self-harming behaviors including substance abuse and suicide.

Among her clients dealing with complex trauma, Trilby sees the effects of not recognizing how one’s past and current trauma leads to these behaviors, symptoms and disorders. In order to bring greater understanding, and more effective treatment, Trilby felt inspired by NARM to bring a trauma-informed approach into her work and the organization she works within. The ability to acknowledge the complexity of trauma, including the often unconscious burdens of historical, intergenerational, and cultural traumas, in addition to the ongoing marginalization that Native people experience, is at the foundation of a true trauma-informed approach.  Using a NARM-informed approach, Trilby feels that she has a more effective way to support and empower the clients and communities she works with.

Trilby also sees a movement towards healing, wellness, and cultural revitalization within the Native community. “It’s an amazing time to see and witness,” she says. “Cultural traditions are on the forefront of wellness, for Native people — and for all people.” Trilby believes this movement is supported by many things, including more access to information, more ease of connectedness between people, more curiosity for and understanding of where we come from, and the ability to come together in community. Sarah and Trilby talk about what it means to ask: “Where are your people from?” and to explore pre-colonial traditions and origins — something both Native and non-Native people can be curious about for themselves.

Trilby shares a powerful reflection of her own personal healing through NARM. She experienced what is taught in NARM, that when people are able to reconnect to their own hearts, connection to others and their community follows.  She now feels a greater sense of freedom and more love for herself. Recognizing and reconnecting to her own agency, “that’s what’s so beautiful about NARM.”  This allows for greater connection to self as well as to others.

Trilby also describes the impact of reconnecting to one’s body and what it feels like to “land” in your body. She believes this internal feeling of reconnection was missing from her healing process until she learned about NARM. “To me, reconnecting to yourself is a marker of healing.” Working clinically with the body has not yet been accepted within Tribal clinics, and yet, connecting with one’s body is embedded in so many Native cultural traditions and practices. Trilby hopes that NARM might find acceptance in Tribal clinics as she believes it resonates with traditional healing approaches that many Native clients feel comfortable with.

The episode concludes with Sarah and Trilby sharing ideas to support continued healing from complex trauma. Specifically for Native communities, Trilby dreams of trauma education at a community level. For other therapists, Trilby dreams of more clinicians becoming trained in NARM and bringing these powerful tools back to their communities and clients, just as she has done. For us all, Trilby leaves listeners with one parting thought: “Humanity is really made to care for one another.”

“You don’t have to build up the muscle of compassion, because if you just get the constraints to your natural compassion to relax, then you have plenty of compassion.” – Dr. Dick Schwartz

In this powerful episode of Transforming Trauma, we have another opportunity to listen to a conversation between authors and therapeutic pioneers Drs. Dick Schwartz, founder of Internal Family Systems (IFS), and Laurence Heller, founder of the NeuroAffective Relational Model (NARM). Joined by our host, Sarah, the two authors come together for a second time to continue their rich conversation on the similarities and differences between the two modalities they’ve created, and to take a more specific look at how both of their works have drawn from the spiritual elements of the human experience. 

Drs. Schwartz and Heller begin their conversation sharing their own journeys of understanding spirituality and how it fits into their work. Dr. Schwartz shares how early on, his direct work with clients challenged the common understanding from traditional psychology, and specifically developmental psychology, and he searched to find his own truth. “First of all, I couldn’t hold the attachment theories’ belief that to have any [Self] you had to have gotten a certain kind of ‘good enough’ parenting at a certain critical period of your childhood, because many of my clients had been tortured on a daily basis when they were young. So there was no way you could explain that being there if you had to posit that they got it from an external relationship.” As someone who was not religious or spiritually minded, his exploration of this territory with clients led him to spirituality, which introduced him to new ideas about the nature of human experience.

Dr. Heller goes on to share several spiritual experiences he had throughout his life, including doing breathwork and experiences during long distance running, which led to an exploration of his own relationship to spirituality and a commitment to spiritual practice. Although he no longer identifies with any one spiritual or religious approach, this deep level of spiritual inquiry and engagement informs his interventions when working with clients to this day: “When I’m working with people, I’m in a very quiet place in myself. There’s an openness and a curiosity, and I’m very present in my body and in the moment.” He goes on to share his perspective that grew from his studies into different spiritual approaches as well as his own experiences. “Ultimately…most human symptoms are a result of disconnection, from the Self, other people, and the true source of the universe.” Dr. Heller explains how NARM is about working with this connection and disconnection process, and exploring the obstacles that get in the way of deeper connections that people seek and long for. 

The pair reflect on their shared belief that no matter the trauma someone goes through, there is always something deep within us that remains unaffected and whole. In IFS, Dr. Schwartz describes this essential, unaffected part “the Self” (with a capital S), while in NARM, Dr. Heller describes it as our innate movement toward connection, health and aliveness, often emerging as intentionality and self-agency.

Throughout their conversation, they discuss the close similarities between IFS and NARM in intention and understanding, and take the time to also compare the differences. Both modalities recognize that our true nature is one of connection and compassion. As Dr. Schwartz states, “You don’t have to build up the muscle of compassion, because if you just get the constraints to your natural compassion to relax, then you have plenty of compassion.” Dr. Heller agrees with this view, and describes how NARM sees these ‘constraints’ through the lens of developmental trauma. He describes: “Children… will foreclose access and connection to…deep, vulnerable, open, heartful parts of themselves…when there is environmental failure, in order to protect the attachment relationship.”

They discuss the role of ‘parts’ in IFS and how these ‘parts’ relate to NARM’s understanding of old identifications. A key difference that emerges between the modalities is that in IFS the ‘parts’ are seen as nouns — truly distinct entities within an individual, that are burdened with responsibilities they may not want (ex: the critical ‘part’). In NARM, the identifications are seen as processes in which are actively created through time (ex: I am criticizing myself). Each model works with these ‘parts’ and identifications in a different way to support clients to free themselves into a more whole understanding of themselves in the present moment. 

Dr. Schwartz and Dr. Heller close this episode by unpacking the ways that some spiritual traditions can actually lead to spiritual bypass and the “splitting” of a person, meaning they view parts of themselves as ‘bad,’ or certain emotions (like anger) as negative. They both believe the effects of making parts of ourselves or our emotions bad results in people pushing away or disconnecting from aspects of their authentic experience as part of the spiritual journey.  Dr. Heller describes how important it was for him to take a different perspective in NARM: “I make the point that there are no destructive emotions. There are destructive behaviors. And so as we integrate the powerful energies of these emotions, and understand what they’re trying to communicate, then they transform [and] become an aliveness and expansion…” Dr. Schwartz resonates with this perspective, and sees a need to call back in the ‘parts’ of the Self that have been exiled, rather than using a spiritual bypass to reject those parts and leave them unintegrated. 

While IFS and NARM are both known as being exciting, emerging models for healing complex trauma, this episode highlights that Drs. Schwartz and Heller acknowledge that the deeper focus in both approaches is on the Self, that internal place within us all that provides the foundation for our lives despite the complexity of wounding and traumas that one has experienced.  As their conversation concludes, they reflect on this beginning of a meaningful, powerful relationship between two very important therapeutic models. What might the future hold for IFS and NARM working together to bring healing into our world?

In this episode of Transforming Trauma, host Sarah Buino facilitates an important discussion between NARM creator Dr. Laurence Heller and Dr. Christina Bethell, researcher, author, policy advocate, and professor at Johns Hopkins University and the Bloomberg School of Public Health.  Dr. Bethell is on the Board of Directors for the Campaign for Trauma-Informed Policy and Practice (CTIPP) and is part of a team of trauma-informed advocates who developed the brief: A Trauma-Informed Agenda for the First 100 Days of the Biden-Harris Administration. Dr. Bethell is leading an effort to promote an agenda of healing and prevention through safe, stable, nurturing relationships, in policy and practice. She is currently involved in multiple research projects focusing on trauma healing, including an article with Dr. Heller, and how to scale trauma-informed trainings for health care professionals on a national level. 

Dr. Bethell has had the opportunity to testify before U.S. Congress advocating for trauma-informed care, and is working with members of the American Academy of Pediatrics to evolve the national conversation from our current understanding of Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) and toxic stress, to a greater focus on promoting relational health.  Dr. Bethell’s work has centered on creating the research base to “promote family resilience and parent-child connection, and looking at social determinants [for health] like alcoholism and mental health problems, emotional neglect, or emotional abuse.”

Dr. Heller and Dr. Bethell reflect with Sarah their shared focus on spreading effective trauma-informed training to helping professionals who work with clients and communities impacted by trauma. Both Drs. Bethell and Heller share their view of the importance of centering relational and somatic attunement when treating childhood trauma, creating a process that can be replicated, without being manualized. As Dr. Bethell describes, it’s necessary to identify the “common elements and principles of practice, and core competencies,” while honoring that relationships can never be taught in a protocol. This poses a challenge for NARM and other similar modalities that highlight and honor the full human experience, and promote a deeper understanding of nuanced and caring relationships. The pressure to achieve Evidence-Based status often leads therapeutic approaches to follow strict protocols that can lead clients – particularly those that have experienced complex trauma – feeling labeled, reduced, misattuned and even objectified. Dr. Heller shares his concerns about manualized therapies and also his mission of promoting NARM as a humane treatment to those that have experienced complex trauma.

Dr. Bethell suggests that, in fact, there is a need to “flip the script” on how we understand what is the most effective parts of Evidenced Based practices, and begin looking at the common principles and elements that create healthy relationships to support healing. She brings in the exciting movement toward centering medical care on therapeutic presence, and research that is demonstrating that compassion is actually at the center of all other interventions. As she says, “it’s kind of like rewiring Maslow’s hierarchy and putting the connection at the center.”  A theme throughout the conversation is the need to center ‘human-ness’ in the helping professionals’ presence, between the provider and the patient, as well as how the provider relates to themselves.

Drs. Heller and Bethell agree that there is a strong need for more trauma-education and normalization generally, so that as a society we recognize that childhood trauma happens to everyone (albeit in different degrees of severity), and that addressing one’s unresolved trauma is a necessary part of working as a helping professional.  As Dr. Heller states, “the people who are doing this kind of work and research are not acknowledging their own fears of connection, their own fears of vulnerability, their own issues with even having compassion for their own suffering.” To do this, providers, researchers, and policy advocates who are leading the trauma-informed movement need to be willing to be in touch with their own vulnerability, and willing to address their own unresolved trauma, rather than treat the topic of complex trauma as if it can be studied and implemented from a totally objective perspective. 

They close their conversation discussing the recent shifts within healthcare to assessing, treating and understanding trauma and resilience. They reflect on what is leading to these shifts, including more nuanced research in child and human development, advances in brain science, and re-focusing funding streams to address ‘diseases of despair’, such as addiction and behavioral health. This focus on trauma-informed care has led to the need for effective trauma trainings for helping professionals all over the world. Many helping professionals recognize the basis of health and resilience as being about connection and relationship, but they do not yet have the advanced clinical skills to implement the kind of changes to their practice that are needed. 

Drs. Bethell and Heller both agree the NARM Training Institute is at the forefront of what this trauma-informed training could look like for helping professionals from various fields. Dr. Bethell ends the episode with encouragement and a ‘call to arms’ for all NARM-trained, and other trauma-informed professionals, to step into places of leadership and bring their perspective and skills to healthcare, mental health, education and other social systems. As she describes, “[These systems are] aching for support and help on how to ground the concepts of healing, recognizing… developmental trauma, and doing something about it.”